Is there a difference?

[wordsower]

Was it a crime to commit murder prior to the Cruxifiction? How about afterward?

What about stealing? Or adultery? Or bearing false witness? How about idol worship?

RND,

Was it a crime to hate your brother in your heart prior to the cross? How about lusting in your heart? Did anyone get stoned for that? Gossip?

Deut. says the law was for those present that day. Were you there?

If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.

It may surprise you to recognize that christians don't think Sunday is the Sabbath, we believe Jesus is our Sabbath rest, the day pointed to Him. See Hebrews4

[eric]

Wordsower, Haven't seen you around for ages. Mind you I don't spend so much time posting as I used to.

Good posy, btw.

e

[wordsower]

Hey Eric,

Yeah, I think the final diagnosis on my computer was the bird flu, not sure, but it was fatal.

So glad to be back! Missed you all!

[eric]

Good to have you back we need people like you in this day.

Sorry about the typo. Was s"posed to be good post lol.

[redeemed098]

I "rest" on Saturday and go to Church on Sunday.....The Word of God is clear when it says "Do not foresake the gathering of the people." Every day is "The day that the Lord has made...Therefore I will rejoice and be glad in it.."

"Where the spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty."

There is no Liberty where the governing principles amount to nothing short of rules and traditions set up by men. Mere Religion.

Jesus said, "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be MY witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth."

Maybe if people who have gone to the cross to receive Pardon would proceed to Pentecost for the Power, we wouldnt have so many people walking the road to Emaus battling doctrines.

Just maybe that is why we are NOT seeing the Power of God...Because it is being denied.

You want to see Gods true church in action, then read the Book of Acts..

I can only say that the Churches of Acts do not seem to be very prevalent today. I believe the key lies in this scripture.

"They hold to the form of religion, yet DENY the Power." Maybe its about time we started BELIEVING in God and NOT religion.

I Love Gods Commandments, because I love God. This is how we are able to demonstrate that we love God. However I also know that they do not have the power to save my soul or change my heart. Only Jesus can do that. It is HE who Justified, HE who Sanctifies and HE who Glorifies.....

I cannot do any of those things and I am absolutely certain that if I COULD, then I would not need the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Clearly if it is by grace that we are saved, through Faith, and this is not through any effort of our own but is the gift of God, then NO observation of any Law is going to save us. Paul said it well when he said to the church of Galatia..."I do not set aside the grace of God for if rightousness could be found through the Law, then Christ died for nothing....." To Live as though observing the Law will save you due to your own effort, you are in effect living as though Christ died for nothing, and trampling the blood of Jesus.

As I previously said, I Love Gods Laws, I concurr with everything David says about them in Psalm 119...I Love them because they reveal to me the majesty and soveriegnty of almighty God. They reveal his perfect love and his perfect justice, they reveal to all of us exactly WHO God IS..When we can learn WHO God IS in the Old Testament, we are then able to recognise him in the person of Christ in the New Testament. The same God of the Old Testament hung on the

Cross of crucifixion in the New Testament. They are one and the same. It may be a new dispensation but he is still the same God.

I think I can finish with an appropriate scripture from the book of Revelation...Chapter 14:11,12

"There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who OBEY GODS COMMANDMENTS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO JESUS."

I think the scripture here speaks for itself...To remain faithful to Jesus includes being obedient to the commandments. There is still an element of obedience to be observed...After all, you are a part of the Kings Kingdom and all kindgoms have rules. Without rules there would be chaos. This is how we show that we love God. "Those who obey his commandments LIVE in HIM and HE in THEM. And this is how we KNOW that he lives in us. We know it by the spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:24)

He never once said that the commandments would pass away..He simply said stop being religious. The Laws cannot save you so stop striving as though they DO. He was also speaking to the house of Israel.....NOT to the gentiles......Stop trying to become a Jew if you are a gentile. The message of salvation is for both Jew and gentile...If you are Jew, then you cannot be a gentile..If you are a gentile then you cannot be a Jew...Do you know why....????

"For there is no longer ,gentile, nor Jew, male nor female, slave nor free, for ALL are made ONE in Christ."

"If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a NEW creation. The OLD has passed away and behold ALL things have been made NEW.."

Regards,

Ben.

Edited July 15, 2006 by redeemed098

[RND]

EVERYDAY (not just the Sabbath) is a day of worship.

I agree. However, the commandment is clear. We are to 'rest' from our labours one day out of seven. On the Sabbath, which is the seventh day.

The Sabbath was a day of rest and it was given to the Children of Israel and was mandatory for that particular dispensation.

The sabbath was not given to the C.O.I. Strangers and sojourners in the land were required to honor the Sabbath themselves. The Sabbath was instituted at creation. It was made for man, not just Jew.

If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.

Should we sin more so that grace abounds? There are many that claim to be led by the spirit yet brake the law of God. The Heaven's Gate cult comes to mind. Here were people that claimmed they were led by the spirit, yet committed sin by breaking the mirror of sin, the 10 Commandments.

There is nothing in Scripture, OT or NT, that abolished the seventh day Sabbath.

[RND]

This from the website foreversabbath.com

Colossians 2:16, 17

One of the most popular texts used to keeping the Fourth Commandment by Christian believers is Colossians 2:16, 17. Peter wrote in his second epistle,....

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15, 16)

Paul wrote to the Romans (3:1, 2), "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." What the church as a whole has missed for 2,000 years is the input of biblical, hebraic understanding. Without knowledge of Jewish life and understanding, the church has been left to analytical, Westernized, Hellenistic interpretations. ----- Yes. We know. This statement is met with much opposition. Read on.

Colossians 2:14: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

It is incorrect to make "ordinances that was against us" to mean God's eternal, immutable Torah. However, what was written "against us" were the Laws mandating compensation, laws of sentencing, penalty (death, sacrifices, etc.).

Colossians 2:16, 17: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

It is gratifying to see the increasing number of not only scholars but lay people who are willing to admit the first century church was Judaic. Gentile converts came into Messianic Judaism, biblical Judaism with Yeshua as Messiah, (...not today's Messianic Movement -- where it is rabbinic Judaism mingled with New Testament doctrine). (The comment in the last set of parenthesis is not to be mistaken. The rabbis and sages have a lot to offer if we would humble ourselves from our "we've got it; they don't" attitudes. What we're saying here is in regard to adoption of traditions that are not taught in Torah or any part of Scripture or are even in opposition to the Word.)

Repeatedly, Paul dealt with "judaisers" who tried to add conversion rites to the justification process within the body of Yeshua's followers.

To this very day, "antimissionary" Jewish folk demand that the Afikomen (center matzah in the Pesach/Passover seder/meal) does not depict Yeshua. "Our Traditions don't teach that; therefore it cannot be so," is the claim. Traditional Jews reject any connection between Pesach (Passover) and the Crucifixion of Messiah (Christ / Anointed [One]). They reject claims of Shavuot (Pentecost) being fulfilled in Jerusalem the same year as Yeshua's Passion. On and on.

So it was in the days of the Colossian epistle. There were plenty of folks trying to tell those Gentile "newbies" that Passover had nothing to do with Yeshua; Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) had nothing to do with the birth of Yeshua as Messiah; Shabbat had nothing to do with Yeshua's rest, etc., etc.

Therefore Paul stated unequivocally that these fine new Colossian believers were not to fall prey to these men and their rhetoric. He instructed them that their observance of Sabbath, Festivals and new moons were --IN FACT-- a shadow of things to come and the "body" (bulk, jist, telos/end, very point of these things) is of Messiah.

Flowing freely from pulpits across the land:

Turn with me now in your Bibles to Colossians 2. Colossians 2, verses 16 and 17. Colossians 2: 16 and 17. Paul writes: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Clearly we see that the new moons, sabbath days and the Jewish feasts were a shadow of Christ. Now that Christ has come, we no longer need types and shadows; we have Christ Himself, to Whom the shadows pointed.

Did you see that? Read it again. Still don't see it? Read it again. Don't see it yet? No problem; we'll help. Here is what is written: "These things are a shadow of things to come. But in their very next sentence, flush against the written Word, follow these words from the pulpits: "These things were...." Which is it? Are or were?

Paul the Apostle, author of the letter to the ekklesia in Rome, 30 plus years after the Resurrection of Him Whose advent supposedly squelched all "Jewish" shadows said, "These things are." Repeat: Thirty years after Messiah: Sabbaths, holydays, new moons are a shadow of ... Messiah's having come? No. "...Of things to come." Presently, right now, at this moment, these things shadow events that are yet to unfold.

To state that Colossians 2 is Paul's testimony against Sabbath-keeping and Festival observance is to claim the passage says something it does not. Further, it puts the Apostle under the stigma of Yeshua's prophecy that if anyone teaches another to break even the least of the Commandments, he will be call least in the kingdom.

For centuries, church theologians have claimed that Colossians 2:16, 17 do away with the Fourth Commandment, written in stone and prefixed with the word, "Remember."

Imagine the power of the church had she walked in the LORD's Commandments, sanctified herself not only Spiritually with the Word and the Holy Spirit, but physically with humble subjection to His Commandments (Romans 8:7)! Imagine the Bride to be of Messiah coming to the Lord of Rest (Sabbath) on His Holy Day and stirring His heart with her passion for Him. Remember, the "Lord of the Sabbath" is looking for a humble bride, not a rebellious girl who does things her way.

Satan has done a fine job of robbing the Saviour of many things He deserves. He has convinced the Bride-to-be that her Groom's wishes are only suggestions to be taken as one sees fit. ("Don't let a Sabbath-keeper judge you. Any day will do in the "Grace-age" economy. We rest in Jesus now and don't 'need' to keep the Old Testament 'Jewish' Sabbath.")...(Oh, yes, we are not to allow those Sabbath keepers judge us, ...but... it is our duty to judge the Sabbath keeper for "trampling grace underfoot," "judaizing," "going 'back' 'under' the Law," "being on the wrong side of Calvary." -- "Stand for the truth! Don't let those Sabbath keepers rob you of the grace you have in Christ.")

Paul's point was for all new converts to Messiah Yeshua to understand that the Sabbath, New Moons, and Festivals are not only a picture of things to come (written 30+ years after the Resurrection...which is said to have "done away with" those things) and are in and of themselves Messiah/Christ. "...the body is of Christ." Somehow, since folk see the words "body" and "Christ," without due process of thought, it is deemed Paul is speaking of "the body of Christ." But...Paul did not pen: the body of Christ. What he penned is: "the body is of Christ." In other words, the body, amalgamation, totality, unity of these things is Messiah. "These things are a shadow of things to come." The body of these things is (of) Messiah. Paul is not even remotely referring to "the body of Messiah." He is discussing the body of the festivals, appointed times. And he writes that the body of these things is of Messiah.

Romans 10:4 "Christ (Messiah) is the end of the the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

The word "end" is the Greek word "telos" and means focus, point of, goal, necessarily: the conclusion of the matter! It is from this word we get telescope. Look through the Torah/Law; study it carefully and when you see all the way to the end, when you see the goal, get the point, come to the conclusion of the Law (Teaching/Instruction/Torah), you will find Messiah, the Anointed One (Yeshua). And He is the body, consistency, makeup of the Sabbath (remember the claim? "Christ is my Sabbath?"), the Festivals and New Moons. He is Yeshua, the Restoration/Salvation of the LORD. He is the Creator of man and rest. He declared holy (set apart for man ["The Sabbath was made for man."]) the Sabbath within hours to minutes of creating man and established the day as a memorial of his creation. Man's first full day alive was on Shabbat. And contrary to popular rhetoric, God did not go and hide Himself from Adam, leaving him and his generations for 2500 years to labor "by the sweat of his brow" every seventh day from sunset to sunset.

Adam: "LORD, where were You yesterday?"

The LORD: "I can't tell you. You'll have to wait until I meet with you on Mount Sinai."

Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham: "Don't I get a day off once in a while?

The LORD: "Dr."C.I. Scofield, Clarence Larken, John Walvoord, all the way back to the "church 'fathers'" will teach "sound doctrine" and "rightly dividing" that you are to have no knowledge of any rest days. Like I said, You'll have to wait until I meet with you on Mount Sinai."

Everything the Scriptures have given us to do and be are summed up in Yeshua. Everything Yeshua is and was is summed up in every word of the Scriptures. John 1 says that Yeshua is the Devarim/Logos/Word of God in flesh, dwelling among us full of --GRACE-- and Truth. Imagine that! Grace in the Torah! Were there no Torah, there would be no Grace. For it is the Torah that tells us how to obtain Grace with a spotless lamb, a cohen gadol (high priest) and a mercy seat.

Paul: Hey folks! Don't let anybody tell you that the Festivals and Shabbat do not depict Messiah. He is the very body of those things. (And for what it's worth, don't let your friends and family outside of Messiah, there in Colosse with their pagan rites of Mithrianism, winter solstice, decorated evergreen trees (Jeremiah 10), spring solstice, Ashtarte (easter) worship, judge you on these things either.)

"Be ye holy, for I am holy." --the LORD. (holy n. 1. set apart from all that is profane or common. 2. set apart, sanctified for special use)

The church has since the earliest days changed the ownership of the Festivals from God (Lev 23, "Feasts of the LORD") and of Shabbat from God (Isa 58:13, "My holy day," Matt 12:8, "Lord of the Sabbath") to the Jews. Instead of calling these moedim (appointed times) God's Feasts/Festivals, they call them "Jewish." Many are the books written about the "Jewish Feasts" or "Feasts of Israel" rather than the Biblically correct "Feasts of the LORD."

Our detractors would say we're picking at straws here for those Festivals were Jewish and were observed in Israel. Yes, they are Jewish. But try to get them to admit out loud that the Sabbath belongs to God, not just the Jews. Try to get them to write their next book on the Festivals with God being depicted as the owner of them.

We hope we haven't stirred anyone to wrath. Rather it is our intention that folk understand that all the "Apostle to the Gentiles" was telling the folks in Colosse was that they were not to let anyone detract from their understanding of God's appointed times. Yeshua is not only the body/consistency/makeup of these wonderful celebrations, but they are a shadow of things yet to come (not which has come).

Churchmen read the words "body is of Christ," and immediately reword it to say "body of Christ" and then make it to mean the body of believers. There is nothing about this passage that is teaching any doctrine of the Body of Messiah/Christ. This discussion is about the appointed times of the LORD; and Paul concludes by stating that these things are the body (consistency, makeup, very image) of Messiah.

And guess what, folk? This is quite understandable from a King James Bible!

[Guest shiloh357]

So it was in the days of the Colossian epistle. There were plenty of folks trying to tell those Gentile "newbies" that Passover had nothing to do with Yeshua; Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) had nothing to do with the birth of Yeshua as Messiah; Shabbat had nothing to do with Yeshua's rest, etc., etc.

Therefore Paul stated unequivocally that these fine new Colossian believers were not to fall prey to these men and their rhetoric. He instructed them that their observance of Sabbath, Festivals and new moons were --IN FACT-- a shadow of things to come and the "body" (bulk, jist, telos/end, very point of these things) is of Messiah.

Actually this is not true. Paul, in Colossians was dealing with the Gnostic heresy. It was the Gnostics who believed that everything in the material world (especially the human body) was sinful. This is why Paul places such heavy emphasis on the "Body" in the epistle and He emphasises the bodily incarnation of Christ. The Gnostics taught that Jesus did not have physical body while on earth.

This carried over into the observance of the Festivals, Sabbaths and such. The Festivals and Sabbaths sanctify time and space and since the material world/universe is evil, so do those things that sanctify them. The Gnostics avoided the physical world and as we can see in the epistle ot the Colossians were heavily into self-denial ("do not taste, do not touch").

While I disagree with those Christians who are staunchly "anti-Sabbath," I also disagree with those who say that the Sabbath MUST be observed and that such observance plays a part in attaining or maintaining salvation.

As I have said RND. You are free to be as pro-Sabbath as you wish, but any teaching that says we must keep the Sabbath as a condition for salvation (per SDA teachings) will not prosper on this baord, period.

[wordsower]

RND,

Instead of posting huge copy and pastes, why don't you do your own studying?

Have you read my testimony?

[Arthur Durnan]

And now under this New Covenant, instead of the Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath given to the nation of Israel in the Book of Exodus, we celebrate the majestic Lord's Day in celebration of Jesus' glorious, physical, literal & everlastingly-alive resurrection from the dead which, just happens to be, the gargantuan difference between New Testament Christianity and all the self-concocted religions of humankind. THEY lived, THEY died! HE lives, HE died....and HE conquered death, hell & the grave! Hallelujah, what a Savior!! AMEN & AMEN!

P.S. Actually, there is no such entity anywhere in the Holy Bible as a "Seventh-day Adventist," the very term itself being a complete non-starter! Ellen Gould Harmon White's religion only commenced in the 19th-century.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com