Israel's current war

[Guest shiloh357]

I think alot of people waiting to be raptured are going to be quite dissolutioned when they realize that modern day secular Israel is not the same thing as being a child of promise adopted into the family of Abraham and a lively stone in the temple.

Israel's days in prophecy are over.

There is no more Jew or Greek, free or slave, man or woman.

We are all children of God now.

RND, I have read this entire thread, and you could not be more wrong. Israel's days in in prophecy are not only NOT over, but are in full swing.

Israel's rebirth was prophesied for us in Ezekiel 36 and 37 and are being fulfilled in front of us, as God is calling back the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.

Israel's rebirth is a New Testament truth. In fact it is a whole Bible truth. We are seeing it happen in our day. Even Jesus and the apostles understood that natoial Israel would fall but be would be restored. This found in Genesis to Revelation.

Furthermore, you are incorrectly using Paul's reference about Jews and Greeks. Paul did NOT say there is not Jew or Greek. Paul said that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

(Galatians 3:28)

Paul's point is that ethnic pedigree, gender, and social status offers no advantage or disadvantage where salvation is concerned, and our place as believers is Christ is concerned. Paul is NOT saying that such distinctives no longer exist. False teachings like the ones you are trying to plant on our boards comes from quoting partial verses and assiging your own subjective values to them.

Israel is still God's nation.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever.

(Jeremiah 31:35-36)

Israel is God' nation forever and He still has a plans for Israel. Israel will accomplish all that God has in store for her.

[Guest shiloh357]

The church today is Israel.

That is a heresy called "Replacement Theology" and is something that you will find is not received on this board. Israel is Israel, and the Church is the Church. The Bible draws a clear distinction between the two. We believe the Bible.

[wordsower]

RND

I humbly warn you that you are deceived. I also hope that you humbly and prayerfully study your position out asking the holy spirit for wisdom.

[RND]

New Testament Israel

by Walter F. Specht

The New Testament writings express the conviction of the followers of Jesus that the Christian community supplanted the Jews as the special people of God. The apostle Paul speaks of Christians as "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:15), "Abraham's offspring" (Gal 3:29), and "the true circumcision" (Phil 3:3). James, the brother of our Lord, designates them as "the twelve tribes in the Dispersion" (James 1:1). Peter's first letter is addressed "to the exiles of the Dispersion" in Asia Minor, "chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood" (1 Pet 1:1, 2). "Dispersion" is a term usually applied to Jews scattered throughout the Mediterranean world. James and Peter, however, are obviously using it for Christians disbursed in various lands. In response to Peter's question regarding the reward the disciples who had left all to follow Jesus were to receive, our Lord promised, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt 19:28). It is evident that the apostles are not destined to rule over literal Israel since our Lord plainly told the Jews, "the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it" (Matt 21:43).

As a strong evidence of their claim to be the special people of God, Christians appropriated the designation, the ekklesia (assembly or church) of God. In the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) ekklesia was one of the two words used to denote the people of Israel in their religious character as the "congregation of the Lord." The other Greek word was sunagoge, "synagogue," which became the designation for the Jewish community. It was not long before there developed a keen rivalry between the church and the synagogue. As a name for the Christian community ekklesia is first found in Acts 5:11. However, according to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus expressed his determination to build his ekklesia, people of God (Matt 16:18). How did Jesus go about building this new Israel, this new people of God? And how was the new community related to the old?

To begin with, Jesus regarded his mission of teaching and healing as being primarily for the Jews. He told the Syro-Phoenician woman, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Most likely this is to be interpreted as meaning "the lost sheep, namely (or, that is to say) Israel." There seems to be here an allusion to the words of Jeremiah 50:6, "My people have been lost sheep; their shepherds have led them astray, turning them away on the mountains" (cf. Ezek 34:6; Isa 53:6). Jesus put forth every effort in bringing back these "lost sheep." He also directed his disciples on their first missionary tour alone, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:6).

But our Lord's messianic mission of salvation was rejected by the Jewish people as a whole. "He came to his own home, and his own people received him not" (John 1:11). There was, however, a substantial number of them who responded in faith to Jesus' message and work. This faithful remnant constituted the nucleus of a new Israel, a new people of God. They were our Lord's "little flock" (Luke 12:32; Matt 26:31). At the center of these faithful ones were the twelve apostles. The fact that Jesus chose twelve such men is significant. It suggests that just as the twelve patriarchs were the founders of ancient Israel so these twelve men are the founders of a new Israel to which our Lord promised a kingdom (Matt 19:28; Luke 22:30). The later choice of seventy others (Luke 10:1) is apparently modeled after the seventy elders of Israel appointed by Moses (Num 11:6).

It is important to recognize the unity and continuity of the New Testament people of God, with Israel in Old Testament times. Mere descent from Abraham was never an iron-clay guarantee of membership in God's people. The apostle Paul was able to show from Old Testament history that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Rom 9:6). Rather, the true Israel is "a remnant, chosen by grace" (Rom 11:5). The concept of a faithful remnant within Israel is prominent in the Old Testament (e.g., Isa 4:2ff.; 10:20-22). They constituted the real Israel within Israel. There thus developed the view even back there, of a spiritual Israel, the real people of God. The early Christian church was made up of faithful Jews in the first century who responded to the Christian message.

The fact of the continuity between the church and the faithful of Israel is illustrated in Paul's metaphor of the olive tree (Rom 11:17-24). In this metaphor the olive tree, according to Ellen G. White, represents "the true stock of Israel-the remnant who had remained true to the God of their fathers" (The Acts of the Apostles, 377-78). Branches, representing Jews, were broken off from it "because of their unbelief" (Rom 11:20). Wild olive shoots, representing the Gentiles, were, contrary to nature, "grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree" (vs. 17). Natural branches who turned in faith could also be grafted in the tree, "for God has the power to graft them in again" (vs. 23).

Although there was a continuity between the new Israel and the faithful remnant of ancient Israel, there was also a new element, the inclusion of Gentiles as an integral part of the new. The acceptance of Gentiles as part of the people of God was not due to human planning, but to the divine leadership of God's Spirit. That Spirit instructed Peter to disregard his Jewish scruples against visiting Gentiles, to go to Caesarea to instruct Cornelius, a Roman centurion, and finally to baptize him and his household as Christians (Acts 10, 11). "Who was I," Peter explained, "that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:17). The persecution of Christians that arose in Jerusalem after the stoning of Stephen, served to scatter them. Wherever they went they spread the Christian faith. At Antioch on the Orontes River in Syria, the first Gentile church was raised up (Acts 11:19-26). The apostle Paul was divinely called as a special apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15; 22:21; 26:16-18, 23).

Not only were Gentiles accepted as members of the Christian community, but the Jerusalem Conference decided that it was not necessary for them to be circumcised and accept the Jewish laws in order to be Christians. Nevertheless they were regarded as on an equality with the Jews. They were "fellow heirs" and "members of the same body" with Jews (Eph 3:6). Though once "alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise" they have been brought near by the blood of Christ. They were therefore "no longer strangers and sojourners" but "fellow citizens with saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:12, 19).

The gospel of Jesus Christ recognizes no nationality or race. Peter with difficulty learned that "God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him" (Acts 10:34, 35). In Christ "there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him" (Rom 10:12). In Christ Jesus all men become sons of God through faith (Gal 3:26). "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" (Gal 3:29). The basis of salvation is not natural descent, but faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not national, but personal. Anyone of any nation or race who accepts Christ in faith will be saved (Rom 10:16). That faith makes him also a child of Abraham who through faith became righteous. "The purpose was," Paul says, "to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised" (Rom 4:11, 12).

Thus the true Israelite is not necessarily a physical descendant of Abraham. "For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly. . . . He is a Jew who is one inwardly" (Rom 2:28, 29). John the Baptist declared that God was capable of raising up children to Abraham from stones (Matt 3:9). The true descendants of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham.

The new Israel thus constituted appropriated the promises and titles anciently given to the Hebrews. This is most clearly shown in 1 Peter 2:9, 10 in which designations drawn from Exodus 19:5, 6 are applied to Christians. They are "a chosen race," an elect people, chosen by God just as truly as was ancient Israel. They are also a "royal priesthood," a designation corresponding to "kingdom of priests" in Exodus 19:6. The Hebrews were to comprise a kingdom consisting of priests, so the church constitutes a body priests, each one of which has a direct access to God. Like Israel of old (Deut 7:6; 14:1), Christians comprise a "holy nation." They are a holy people because God has separated them from all other people to be dedicated to him. They are therefore "God's own people," or in the words of the KJV, "a peculiar people," "peculiar" in the sense of belonging exclusively to God as his special treasure. Recalling the message in the names of Hosea's children (Hos 1:6-11), Peter adds, "Once you were no people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy."

Why has God called a new Israel as his special people? Peter answers, "that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:11). It is the function of the church to witness to the excellencies of God. God has not called the church to privilege only, but to a weighty responsibility. Every Christian is to testify to God's grace and love in leading him out of darkness into the light of truth. Jesus Christ, as Paul put it "gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds" (Titus 2:14). The risen Christ gave his church the task of making disciples of all nations, and of teaching them to obey our Lord's commands (Matt 28:19, 20). The church is to display the manifold wisdom, and power, and love of God to the world (Eph 3:10).

[Guest shiloh357]

Walter is a Seventh Day Adventist, and Adventist teachings are suspect since they include the belief that salvation is dependent upon Sabbath observance. Furthermore Seventh Day Adventists are heavily into Replacement Theology which this board's leadership does not support.

You are barking up the wrong tree, RND. We do not accept your teachings on this subject, period.

[RND]

by Clifford Goldstein

If the birth of Israel thousands of years ago in the Middle East made the area significant, then wouldn't its rebirth do the same there today too?

It depends. If the covenant promises made to ancient Israel are applicable to modern Israel, then yes, Israel's presence would again make the Middle East prophetically important. This view-that the covenant relationship to ancient Israel was unconditional and that it applies to the Jews as a corporate body even now-is dogma for many evangelicals, which explains their obsession with the modern Hebrew nation.

Some Christians as a whole don't accept this understanding of the covenant. Repeatedly the promises in Scripture made to ancient Israel were conditional. "It shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord . . ." reads promise after promise. Israel as a political entity didn't obey the voice of God, and therefore the promises made to it as a nation were eventually invalidated. Instead, the promises went to the New Testament church, composed of Jews and Gentiles from all over the world. "You are a chosen people," Peter wrote to believers in various countries, "a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9, NIV).

Some Christians believe that "if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal 3:29, NKJV). Few among us believe that modern Israel enjoys the same covenant promises made to their ancestors. Instead, the remnant church-with the gospel, the sanctuary, the law, the health message-has taken the place of ancient Israel.

What, then is the significance of the return of the Jews to Palestine? It's important to them, of course-and after what the Jews have suffered, they certainly have the right to safe and secure borders. But does their presence make the Middle East holy or the center of Bible prophecy? If a large number of Jews makes a place sacred, then for years the holiest place on earth must have been Brooklyn!

The Middle East was significant only because God's people were there. Where are they now? In more than 180 nations all over the world. Therefore, why would the Bible now direct us toward the Middle East, when it is no longer the center of God's salvation activity for the world? The answer, of course, is that it doesn't.

All the prophecies of Daniel have clearly not been fulfilled: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed" (Dan 2:44). "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was" (Dan 12:1). Which of these events have already happened? (See also Dan 7:27).

[Guest shiloh357]

Some Christians as a whole don't accept this understanding of the covenant. Repeatedly the promises in Scripture made to ancient Israel were conditional. "It shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord . . ." reads promise after promise. Israel as a political entity didn't obey the voice of God, and therefore the promises made to it as a nation were eventually invalidated. Instead, the promises went to the New Testament church, composed of Jews and Gentiles from all over the world. "You are a chosen people," Peter wrote to believers in various countries, "a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9, NIV).

There is a lot of Bible this guy ignores. The Land Promises God made to Abraham were unconditional. Israel's right to exist on the Land is an unconditional promises. Israel's prosperity in the Land was conditional, but their right to the Land is not conditional.

Furthermore this author ignores the wide body of Scripture that teach that Israel's rebirth is not not merely for Israel's sake, but for the sake of God's Name. God is sanctifying His Name in restoring Israel. The book of Ezekiel in chapters 36 and 37 both clearly teach a rebirth of national Israel followed a spritual renewal. The wording of these chapters is unmistakable, and one must do quite bit of theological gymnastics in order to get around the plain meanings of those passages.

[RND]

Walter is a Seventh Day Adventist, and Adventist teachings are suspect since they include the belief that salvation is dependent upon Sabbath observance. Furthermore Seventh Day Adventists are heavily into Replacement Theology which this board's leadership does not support.

You are barking up the wrong tree, RND. We do not accept your teachings on this subject, period.

Indeed he is. Does that mean he is to be automatically rejected because of what, his theology or his Adventism?

Adventists to not preach that salvation is dependant upon Sabbath observance. This is a falsehood that is routinely trotted out to disparage the message and the messsenger. The Pharisees did the same thing to Jesus.

What, pay tell is "Replacement Theology?" That the church replaced Israel? I think even a casual glance at the Scripture indicates that indeed, 1) Israel rejected the Messiah and 2) You cannot be saved simply because you were born a Jew.

Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

If it is in the Holy Bible then I believe it. If you have a problem with anything being replaced you may want to take it up with our Heavenly Father. He is the one that made the Jews covenant "conditional" and not "perpetual."

You know shiloh, I thought we were getting along so well, but it seems obvious to me that you have a problem with the Adventists and their interpretation of the Bible, let alone allowing other's to express a theological viewpoint different than yours.

[Guest shiloh357]

If it is in the Holy Bible then I believe it. If you have a problem with anything being replaced you may want to take it up with our Heavenly Father. He is the one that made the Jews covenant "conditional" and not "perpetual."

Israel's right to the Land and their place as God's nation is not "conditional." Israel's right to the Land is based upon the Abrahamic Covenant, which an unconditional convenant. Same with Israel's nationhood See Jeremiah 31:35-36. Israel is God's nation forever.

You know shiloh, I thought we were getting along so well, but it seems obvious to me that you have a problem with the Adventists and their interpretation of the Bible, let alone allowing other's to express a theological viewpoint different than yours.

I can't stop you from presenting your views, but if you start veering from the Bible I will be here to correct your errant "theology." I could tell from the beginning that you were baiting a trap.

[RND]

Some Christians as a whole don't accept this understanding of the covenant. Repeatedly the promises in Scripture made to ancient Israel were conditional. "It shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord . . ." reads promise after promise. Israel as a political entity didn't obey the voice of God, and therefore the promises made to it as a nation were eventually invalidated. Instead, the promises went to the New Testament church, composed of Jews and Gentiles from all over the world. "You are a chosen people," Peter wrote to believers in various countries, "a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9, NIV).

There is a lot of Bible this guy ignores. The Land Promises God made to Abraham were unconditional. Israel's right to exist on the Land is an unconditional promises. Israel's prosperity in the Land was conditional, but their right to the Land is not conditional.

Furthermore this author ignores the wide body of Scripture that teach that Israel's rebirth is not not merely for Israel's sake, but for the sake of God's Name. God is sanctifying His Name in restoring Israel. The book of Ezekiel in chapters 36 and 37 both clearly teach a rebirth of national Israel followed a spritual renewal. The wording of these chapters is unmistakable, and one must do quite bit of theological gymnastics in order to get around the plain meanings of those passages.

Jesus fullfilled the Promises made to Abraham.

Luke 19:9

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (The lost sheep of Israel)

John 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

This from a non-Adventist

Elsewhere, when this same Apostle was making an effort to encourage the faith of believers in the faithful

Edited July 14, 2006 by RND