firehill Posted July 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2006 this place is not the Church The christian church is absolutely not a 'place' but rather the body of believers. Yes I am aware of that, please don't start with the sarcasm. But we do not come together as a "body" of believers here at Worthy. This is a place to come together to chat, debate, learn, lecture and by so many of the post you read, evidently to insult other people who don't agree with everything we say. As for your article you can find just as many knowledgeable and learned writers disagreeing with what yours says. Sarcasm? I was agreeing with you. Oops..............my bad! Will you accept my apology, I'm afraid I took your response differently than you intended. Bad day, and seem to be bringing it with me to Worthy! I am very sorry! My bad for making a simple statement. I have a tendency of always trying to keep things simplistic, like in my writing or speech. Ofcourse I'll accpet your apology. Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted July 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,026 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2006 this place is not the Church The christian church is absolutely not a 'place' but rather the body of believers. Yes I am aware of that, please don't start with the sarcasam. But we do not come together as a "body" of believers here at Worthy. This is a place to come together to chat, debate, learn, lecture and by so many of the post you read, evidently to insult other people who don't agree with everything we say. As for your article you can find just as many knowledgeable and learned writers disagreeing with what yours says. We all are living stones and when we come together we form the body, even here at worthy. Worthy is set up with leadership roles or ranks, and I see woman in those positions. Of course that is at Georges discretion. But, the men and woman here who adamently defend the cause for woman to submit, for woman to only teach other woman and children, and for woman to not hold places of authority over men, really should have a problem with the way this board is set up....yet they don't. Hmmmm. BTW, is your head covered?? Just kidding with ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw The church is the gathering together of all those who were "called out" of the world. We are the "called out ones." Any gathering together of the saints in God's household is where the church is. This is not the church and does not have the true marks of a church. It does not preach the gospel nor administer the sacraments. Further it does not provide for church discipline. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,026 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw The church is the gathering together of all those who were "called out" of the world. We are the "called out ones." Any gathering together of the saints in God's household is where the church is. This is not the church and does not have the true marks of a church. It does not preach the gospel nor administer the sacraments. Further it does not provide for church discipline. sw Yes, it does provide discipline in the form of warnings and bannings. Oh and, deleted posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehill Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw This board is a 'gathering' place which is set up with authority. And the preaching of the word does occur here. I still say according to some of the beliefs here (even by the woman) that the woman are out of line by holding positions of authority over the men. This isn't my personal belief, I just feel people need to practice what they preach. Hi, Jamie. Does the Bible refer to any numbered gathering of believers as 'A church' or 'the church' (by the words, 'the church' I do mean, 'the body of Christ')? Is the word for 'church' used in the Greek, in the N.T.? Does God only count as a 'church' the gathering of believers in a physical structure in which it's ateendants only follow the N.T. patterns of christian gatherings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,026 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw This board is a 'gathering' place which is set up with authority. And the preaching of the word does occur here. I still say according to some of the beliefs here (even by the woman) that the woman are out of line by holding positions of authority over the men. This isn't my personal belief, I just feel people need to practice what they preach. Hi, Jamie. Does the Bible refer to any numbered gathering of believers as 'A church' or 'the church' (by the words, 'the church' I do mean, 'the body of Christ')? Is the word for 'church' used in the Greek, in the N.T.? Does God only count as a 'church' the gathering of believers in a physical structure in which it's ateendants only follow the N.T. patterns of christian gatherings? And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Colossians 1:18-20 I believe that any gathering of believers outside or inside any location is the church, IE the body of Christ. I don't believe that a geographical location with a sign outside defines the church any more than a persons favorite clothing store truly defines them. It's a place of choice, but its not what makes you who you are. The common bond of being born of the Spirit of God is what makes up the body and defines His church. BTW firehill, i'm only playing advocate to those who believe a womans place is to be submissivly quiet in the assembly. It isn't necessarily my belief. All i'm really saying is if you truly believe a woman should teach only other woman..etc. Then it should be practiced here on the board by those who advocate it, because in a sense this board is a 'nontraditional' form of church. Heres my belief: 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 describes it like this: "The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many." This means each Christian is an equal part of the body of Christ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw The church is the gathering together of all those who were "called out" of the world. We are the "called out ones." Any gathering together of the saints in God's household is where the church is. This is not the church and does not have the true marks of a church. It does not preach the gospel nor administer the sacraments. Further it does not provide for church discipline. sw 1) Worthy preaches the gospel every day. 2) Believers on Worthy partake of the Lord's Table and have been baptised into the church, of which every Christian participant of this board is a member. 3) Believers in their respective church localities are disciplined as the Lord sees fit. Nevertheless, Worthy does its own fair share of "casting out" (banning) members from the fellowship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw The church is the gathering together of all those who were "called out" of the world. We are the "called out ones." Any gathering together of the saints in God's household is where the church is. This is not the church and does not have the true marks of a church. It does not preach the gospel nor administer the sacraments. Further it does not provide for church discipline. sw 1) Worthy preaches the gospel every day. 2) Believers on Worthy partake of the Lord's Table and have been baptised into the church, of which every Christian participant of this board is a member. 3) Believers in their respective church localities are disciplined as the Lord sees fit. Nevertheless, Worthy does its own fair share of "casting out" (banning) members from the fellowship. Worthy does not preach anything. Nor does worthy serve Holy Communion or baptize. Nor does worthy exercise church discipline (primarily because it is not a church!). Worthy is a para-church ministry organization. Overdya, if you are seriously arguing that Worthy is truly a church you should be aware of the consequences of that should some new believer take you seriously and decide they do not need a real church. Better keep that in mind lest you cause some little one to sin. I would imagine a millstone around your neck would not be much fun. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Wow what a good topic and it has brought up some other interesting issues. But really we have several different topics. The fist topic is should women be Pastors? It is very clear in the bible, the bible clearly lays out the EXACT requirements for who should be a Pastor, it starts with a man of one wife, etc, this office is indeed held for men. But that is a separate topic from one of authority, power, submission, and all of what those mean. However when we ignore scripture in one area, which those churches that have ordained women have done, we see the possible end result, and that is ignoring scripture in the most important areas (of which who to ordain is not the most important area). If we can simply blow off the direct and clear command about who is to be a pastor, then maybe we can blow of the part about Christ having risen from the dead, being the Way the Truth and the Life, being the only path to God. This is the path that some major denominations, which have ignored direct scripture concerning who to ordain, have followed. I would not have guessed that this would happen but it has. But the office of pastor being held for a man, is not saying that women should be subordinate to men, in fact the Gospel says the opposite of that. But it is no more sexist to claim that a man should hold that position of pastor than it is to claim that it is sexist for Christ to have been a male, or that it is sexist to claim that Mary the mother of our Lord and Savior was a women. The fact is though there has been no refutation of the passages which I quoted much earlier showing who was to be ordained, they are direct it is addressing THIS very issue, there is no need for the complex twisting. One of the main arguments for ordaining women that I have heard was that Paul, himself was sexist and thus we must ignore a good portion of what he has to say about women. In this mode of thought, Paul is a product of his times, but of course this would mean a good portion of the New Testament itself is sexist, a product of its time. Well gee, then it is no longer truth nor can we say it is from God it is time and culturally bound, in need of modern interpretation. When this thought process happens, the faith is hurt very badly, as the Gospel itself is now in question. Paul spoke the Words God implanted in his heart, they are from God, if you deny those words you stand against God, you stand against Christ and you stand against the Gospel itself. Bishop Shelby Spong of the Episcopal Church USA goes down this path taking it to its logical extension. His end is that Christ was not divine, but simply a man who was killed and thrown to the dogs. I believe Bishop Spong claims that his body burned after He was killed, and of course He didn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted July 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted July 20, 2006 What makes this board any different than a regular assembly? Why are there females on here who have more authority than men, and who are teachng (which some posts suggest) more than woman and children? Why is it that it's ok via internet, yet not in person? Isn't it hypocritical to say that woman are to be submissive to men, to only teach woman and children, to not hold positions of authority over men.....yet allow it here on the board? Just curious about how you would reconcile that, or if you would say that isn't happening here. jamie, I would say this board is not the same as a church, where the preaching of the Word occurs and where the Sacraments are properly administered. The church, not worthy boards, is the bride of Christ. blessings, sw The church is the gathering together of all those who were "called out" of the world. We are the "called out ones." Any gathering together of the saints in God's household is where the church is. This is not the church and does not have the true marks of a church. It does not preach the gospel nor administer the sacraments. Further it does not provide for church discipline. sw 1) Worthy preaches the gospel every day. 2) Believers on Worthy partake of the Lord's Table and have been baptised into the church, of which every Christian participant of this board is a member. 3) Believers in their respective church localities are disciplined as the Lord sees fit. Nevertheless, Worthy does its own fair share of "casting out" (banning) members from the fellowship. Worthy does not preach anything. Nor does worthy serve Holy Communion or baptize. Nor does worthy exercise church discipline (primarily because it is not a church!). Worthy is a para-church ministry organization. Overdya, if you are seriously arguing that Worthy is truly a church you should be aware of the consequences of that should some new believer take you seriously and decide they do not need a real church. Better keep that in mind lest you cause some little one to sin. I would imagine a millstone around your neck would not be much fun. sw The gospel is being preached all over the world through Worthy. Maybe you're not paying much attention to what this ministry is doing, though. Since when has serving communion or baptism been limited to a particular setting with a particular means? John the baptist baptized in the river Jordan out in the open. Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch in a river out in the open. Neither of these baptisms were in a church building conducted by an ordained priest through the means of some ritual practice. When Philip preached to the Eunuch, the eunuch said, "Look, water. What prevents me from being baptized?" When the Lord's table was first established in practice it took place from house to house daily (Acts 2:46). It was not conducted by a priest of a certain religious denomination, at a certain appointed time and place, and with certain prayers being prayed and reciprocal recitations being spoken. When a member of the Body of Christ partakes of the Lord's Table he is partaking of the same expression of God's grace as another believer thousands of miles away. When he is baptized he is joined to the Body of Christ, which is universal with all the believers all over the earth. The Body of Christ has no boundaries. It is not limited to a local expression - a local church. Therefore, whether Worthy baptized or whether it conducts communion or not, all the members still have. There is no commandment that a "true church" conducts certain "true practices" in order to be considered the church. While is is practical and necessary for all believers to be a part of a local church, Worthy is just a valid expression of the universal church. It is not the intent of Worthy to replace any local church or to draw believers away from their local churches. However, it is nevertheless just as valuable in terms of providing spiritual nourishment and growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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