The Restoration of Israel in the New Testament

[Larry 2]

QUOTING YOU - Actually it is not tha 144,000 that preach the gospel to the world, these are dedicated to Israel are of the tribes of Israel but it is the angels who preach to the world the gospel.

ANSWER - Dear Brother Kevin, I'm sorry I selected and used the words as I did, but I said or meant to convey that it is the woman who gave birth to the man child that remains to witness to those on the earth. The 144,000 are sort of firstfruits of the restored nation of Israel to the Lord. And in Revelation 12:5 we read of this special woman that "She brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." This man child are the 144,000 that are seen in Revelation 14:1 who are going to be ruling with Jesus over the nations along with the twelve apostles in Matthew 19:28. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." And this part will all happen from heaven. Then the woman who gave birth to the man child will be persecuted by the dragon (Satan) and God will protect them (Revelation 12:13-16) for the remaining 3 1/2 years of the tribulation and they will be that whole nation that God brings into the millennium. As I said before, they will those that witness to the nations. This will be in fulfillment of Matthew 28:19. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." As you know that in our present dispensation or age Colossians 3:17 tells us "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." This is Jesus' time when all power and authority has been given Him. We have not reached that time when Israel will go out into the world and preach to nations and baptizing them.

You stated above that angels would be the ones preaching the gospel to the world, and I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. If you do have some scripture in mind, the word "Angel" refers to a messenger or representative of God. And I'll just give you an example here of a human messenger thought to be an angel. In Revelation 1:1 God the Father gave Jesus a "Revelation of Jesus Christ" or that is a revealing of Jesus, and Jesus gives it to "His angel" that messenger to show John these things. Well we read in Revelation 19:10; And I (John) fell at his feet (Jesus' angel) to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." This angel of the Lord was a glorified saint so magnificent that John evidently took him for Jesus Himself. It happened again in Revelation 22:9. "Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." But I am surely am interested in what you have to say about the angels witnessing to the nations.

QUOTING YOU - He is speaking to the Jews and is turning their eyes and understanding toward their God instead of toward their birthright as their salvation, not that it was ever any other way.

ANSWER - I agree here Kevin but God is going to use His witnesses to do that - Israel will not just be magically changed into believers or there would be no need of the gospel going to them.

Thank you Kevin for your response and God bless you in Jesus' precious name - larry2

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Larry,

I dont want to hijack this thread and go off in another direction other than Shiloh had intended, however I would like to address a few things that you have posted and then if you'd like you can open another thread and send me a PM and link and we'll see where it goes from there.

The 144,000 are sort of firstfruits of the restored nation of Israel to the Lord.

Not sort of, they are.

Rev 14

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This man child are the 144,000 that are seen in Revelation 14:1 who are going to be ruling with Jesus over the nations along with the twelve apostles in Matthew 19:28. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

I am a little unclear on this event as of yet but am asking God for revelation to the event, however there is a guy whom I greatly respect his insight by the name of Tommy Spurgeon who seems to see it in the same light as yourself and here is a small part of what he has to say:

Rev.12:

1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Many believe that this man-child is Jesus because it says that he shall rule all nations with a rod of iron. It also says that the child is caught up to God and his throne. It is understandable that we would think this because Jesus is to rule with a rod of iron after his return and the simple fact that Jesus was caught up to heaven after his resurrection and final days with his disciples. But in Isaiah 66 we find that this is not true.

Isaiah 66:

7: Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8: Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9: Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

In the above verses notice in the 7th verse that it says before she travailed, before her pain came, that she gave birth to a man child. This child is Jesus. He was born at a time when Israel was not ready to give birth. A time that people would not receive him to be born again.

However in the 8th verse it says that as soon as she travails that she will bring forth her children. This is part of the mystery of the woman in Rev. 12:1. The woman in Rev. 12:1 is in travail and pain to be delivered. This is talking about at the time that God has appointed her to have children, A time that the children of Israel will return to God by accepting Jesus as their savior. They will be born again by the Spirit the same as us. The man-child in Rev. 12 is the first fruits of this event, the 144,000 men that God has saved for the purpose of taking the Gospel to the Anti-Christ nations.

They will be the first fruits of the country of Israel itself; not all of Israel as a whole, but the nation of Israel that is in the Middle East. This is not to say that they will be the first fruits of the Rapture itself but rather the first fruits of the nation of Israel that will be saved. The 144,000 will be saved some time during the first 3 and

[Larry 2]

Dear brother Kevin, greetings in the precious name of Jesus. I may repeat myself a little here for the sake of any that may look in on this discussion for the first time and want to be able to keep up with the context of my answers. Yes we have wandered a little clarifying certain meanings as to who the actual restored nation of Israel are, but it is necessary to put certain scripture pertaining to them in the New Testament in its correct context and time period to realize where they receive this restoration, and where and what different parts of Israel will be doing at any given time.

Quoting me - The 144,000 are sort of firstfruits of the restored nation of Israel to the Lord.

Quoting Kevin - Not sort of, they are. - You quoted Revelation 14:4 - These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

My Response - Amen Kevin, but they are not the only ones that were a firstfruit. Romans 16:5. "Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ." James 1:18 "Of his own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." A firstfruit seems to be the first unto God of any given company being spoken of. For instance we read in 1 Corinthians 15:20. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Quoting me - This man child are the 144,000 that are seen in Revelation 14:1 who are going to be ruling with Jesus over the nations along with the twelve apostles in Matthew 19:28. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Quoting Kevin - I am a little unclear on this event as of yet but am asking God for revelation to the event.

My response - Hopefully this explained by someone more competent than myself will help on this. Again I would like to emphasize or add that these 144,000 are the man child of Revelation 12:5 who will be ruling the nations are caught up to God and to His throne. They will rule from heaven with Christ and not be the earth dwellers that their brethren are.

To quote my dear brother in Christ Gene Hawkins of Gospel Fellowship and Grace and Glory Bible College, he says of this woman: Isaiah 54:6 says it this way. "For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God." In 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul talking about the Church describes a body of people as a woman when he says "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." In Revelation 17:5 the false church is termed "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS." So what we want to see here is that this mystery woman, this great wonder in heaven, this woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars is actually representative of the whole family of God in heaven and earth. The reason that we say that is because John starts this mystery on the earth and then he sees it in heaven representative of the whole household of faith or the whole household of God. There are those that are in heaven, and there are those that are in earth and if you go through the four gospels, there are times when Jesus says the kingdom of heaven, and then we find the kingdom of the earth. Is one contradictory to the other? No. They are both a part of the same ministry. There is the heavenly kingdom, and there is the earthly kingdom and the reason being because Jesus is what? Jesus is the Lord of heaven and earth.

Quoting Kevin- Actually it is not tha 144,000 that preach the gospel to the world, these are dedicated to Israel are of the tribes of Israel but it is the angels who preach to the world the gospel............................

Quoting me - You stated above that angels would be the ones preaching the gospel to the world, and I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. If you do have some scripture in mind, the word "Angel" refers to a messenger or representative of God.

Quoting Kevin - I understand that the word angel means messenger, but these angels spoken of here are actually literal angelic beings, not glorified saints. Now I do believe that the 144,000 will preach the gospel, however it really doesn't say anything about them preaching anything but I believe that their primary ministry will be to Israel, where as the angel will preach to the nations. The key word is right after he speaks of the 144,000, he mentions another angel, now my understanding of the word another means other than than the 144,000, as a matter of fact there are three other angels other than the 144,000 involved in the events here. And then you quoted this verse: Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

My response - Your question rightly seems to indicate that these might be actual created angels but we need to look even further. Now I will use Revelation 15:6 for this answer because there is additional comment made about these different angels in the book of Revelation that we see so involved in God's judgment. "And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen." This white linen they wear is the righteousness, righteous deeds, or the righteous acts of the saints talking of the bride of Christ in Revelation 19:7. Revelation 19:8. "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." She is that one who will be ruling and reigning with Christ as kings and priests in Revelation 1:6.

Again to make my job easier here I quote Brother Hawkins. Revelation 14:6. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." I want to notice that there are six of these special angels shown in Revelation 14:6-20, and so this is the first one. Now those that dwell upon the earth here in this verse seem to be only professed believers and the reason I say that is because that in Revelation 11:10 these same ones that dwelled in the earth actually rejoice when the two witnesses are killed so these are not true believers. If they were believers they wouldn't be rejoicing when the two witnesses were killed as they were. Then notice that this angel preaches the everlasting gospel first to those that dwell on the earth, and then to those of every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Now I'm sure as we're going to get on down here that that is a message of judgment that is coming to those unbelievers who are just professors, but then to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. These seem to represent those very elect that are on the earth that need His comfort and protection at that time because there's going so much unbelief and ungodliness and all this judgment being poured out on the righteous and the wicked. Remember how Jesus said, "He that endureth to the end shall be saved?" Well those are righteous people that are in that time of devastation and so they really are going to need a message of comfort and encouragement from this everlasting gospel. Matthew 24:31 says it this way. "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." So this first angel that goes forth seems to be ministering to these elect that has been scattered far and wide and his message seems to be threefold. The first thing here is "The everlasting gospel" while in Daniel 9:24 we see "Everlasting righteousness," and they both mean exactly the same thing; it's a matter of preaching Christ and His righteousness to the very elect at this time because that is the only message that is ever going to last for anything or anyone and it is true of us today. Well it is also going to be very applicable and very needful at this time of which we speak here in this very devastating time around the middle of the week there in that week of tribulation.

Quoting Kevin - Yes angelic beings are our brothers and yes they are our fellow servants unto Jesus and we are both created by God. In Revelation 19 there is a clear distinction between the angels mentioned and the redeemed saints of God, to me anyway.

My response - Again dear brother, Revelation 1:1 talks of Jesus' angel that signified or gave the meaning of this revealing of Himself, or the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John, and this same angel is the one in Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:9 that John bows to which is giving him the revelation. In Revelation 19:10 the angel refers to himself as "I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." In Revelation 22:9 the angel proclaims: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." A created angel can never claim to be our brethren because I never read of them being washed in the blood. You mentioned that both angels and men were created, but we as believers became born unto God.

Thank you so much again Kevin for your kind response in the wonderful name of our Lord Jesus - larry2

Edited August 22, 2008 by Larry 2

[Celt]

shiloh357,

I know we'll disagree on some Biblical issues, but I definitely agree with the physical restoration of chosen Israel back to the original promised inheritences, under Christ Jesus as KING sitting upon the earthly throne of David. But with that idea I must also make mention of the joining of the two sticks (two houses) of Israel written in Ezekiel 37.

The way I understand it, is that right now, since God split old Israel into two nations (houses), both are on a parallel path towards His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. The unbelieving branches among both houses will be cropped off, but the two houses will never be destroyed and will become joined again under Christ at His coming, and they shall inherit the believing Gentiles, with all described by Paul in Ephesians 2:12 as "the commonwealth of Israel".

I also see in that parallel plan, God's Promises and Blessings He gave to Israel still being established upon this earth. In Genesis 49 remember, that's a prophecy for the tribes of Israel in the last days.

[yesult]

shiloh357,

I know we'll disagree on some Biblical issues, but I definitely agree with the physical restoration of chosen Israel back to the original promised inheritences, under Christ Jesus as KING sitting upon the earthly throne of David. But with that idea I must also make mention of the joining of the two sticks (two houses) of Israel written in Ezekiel 37.

The way I understand it, is that right now, since God split old Israel into two nations (houses), both are on a parallel path towards His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. The unbelieving branches among both houses will be cropped off, but the two houses will never be destroyed and will become joined again under Christ at His coming, and they shall inherit the believing Gentiles, with all described by Paul in Ephesians 2:12 as "the commonwealth of Israel".

I also see in that parallel plan, God's Promises and Blessings He gave to Israel still being established upon this earth. In Genesis 49 remember, that's a prophecy for the tribes of Israel in the last days.

I agree with this - except I don't understand the 'inheriting the believing gentiles bit'? What exactly do you mean by that? The bible says that all who overcome will rule the earth with him - it's not one group of overcomers ruling another group. (or am I putting words in your mouth? )

Edited October 4, 2008 by yesult

[being molded]

If a king of a kingdom which belongs eternally to the king, calls a man dwelling in a foreign land out of that land to come and dwell in his kingdom;

and if that king makes an unsolicited promise to that man to give the man and his descendants the king's kingdom as their everlasting inheritance;

and if the king binds himself by covenant to perform his promise;

and if the only condition the king places on the man and his descendants is that they take the king at his word concerning his promises (Gal.3: 17),

then it would be not only absurd, but also a little under-handed for the king to hide (in the wording of his promises) a meaning that would (a) take thousands of years to unravel; and (b) completely do away with the plain and literal meaning of the promises.

"And when they entered the nations where they went, they even profaned My holy name by saying to them, These are the people of the Jehovah, and they are gone out of His land . But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.

Therefore say to the house of Israel, So says the Lord Jehovah: I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.

And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst.

And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all lands, and will gather you into your own land." (Eze.36: 20-24)

[Celt]

I agree with this - except I don't understand the 'inheriting the believing gentiles bit'? What exactly do you mean by that? The bible says that all who overcome will rule the earth with him - it's not one group of overcomers ruling another group. (or am I putting words in your mouth? )

Isa 54:2-3

2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

(KJV)

It's not meant to slight believing Gentiles on The Savior Jesus Christ. Yet our Lord did make a distinction in His service for His chosen elect of Israel, even in Revelation...

Rev 21:12-14

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

(KJV)

Matt 19:27-28

27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"

28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(KJV)

Are those "twleve thrones" for everybody that has believed? No. Note I said those "twelve thrones". I believe there will be many other thrones for the nations in Christ's future Kingdom (Rev.11:15). I do not see Christ's Salvation coming without order and structure. Ezekiel 48 shows the twelve tribes of Israel inheriting the lands of promise in Christ's future Kingdom on earth. Each tribe is mentioned by name. In Rev.7 those sealed of the twelve tribes of Israel are mentioned separately from the Gentiles in the 9th verse. And like Paul said in Ephesians 2, believing Gentiles have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel". I'm considered a Gentile myself, but I see no problem with God's future Kingdom structure of the eternity per His Word. And that structure I see per Scripture, is that in God's eternity, Israel will be the head nation at Jerusalem, with all other nations flowing unto it...

Isa 2:2-3

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

(KJV)

Just to show that event has never happenned on earth yet, here's the very next verse which declares what time that is for...

Isa 2:4

4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

(KJV)

I do have a problem with popular teachings of walking on the clouds and doing nothing. God said in Isaiah 45:18 He created this earth to be inhabited, and it will be. There will be nations on this earth also in Christ's Milennium reign (latter Zech.14; Rev.11:15). The prophecies of how the Eternity will be established with stucture is written in the Old Testament Books of the prophets. If all this sounds foreign, it's probably because of not covering those future prophecies from the Old Testament Books. When I read about Christ's reign in Rev.20 forward, I know the given structure for that is written starting in Ezekiel 40 forward in detail. All of God's Word weaves together as a whole. Many simply aren't getting the 'whole' loaf of Bread, but only fragments of it because of men's traditions.

[angels4u]

beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth

Interesting that this talks about Jerusalem

I love the anthem of Israel :

As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,

With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,

Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:

To be a free people in our land,

The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

[IslandRose]

This topic has been split. Everything from post # 184 on has been made into it's own thread which may be found in the Doctrinal Forum here ....

[Guest]

beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth Psalms 48:2

Interesting that this talks about Jerusalem

I love the anthem of Israel :

As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,

With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,

Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:

To be a free people in our land,

The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Romans 11:15

Hallelujah~!

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness. Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. Psalms 48:1-2