Good information on 'Born Gay' Studies

[Guest LadyC]

This seems a strange argument to me, LadyC; this means that God also makes children with congenital birth defects or diseases such as progeria, forms Siamese twins, makes some babies be with their organs on the outside of their body and lets children be formed as the result of incestuous relations. If these things aren't mistakes and they aren't cruel, then what are they?

homosexuality is a sin, one that God abhors, and one that He says will cause eternal separation from His kingdom. brith defects, diseases, etc. may seem cruel to human standards, but they will not cause eternal separation from God. children born of incest is not a sin of the child that will cause the child to be separated from God... it is a result of the sin of the parent(s).

by the way, many disagree with me here on this one point, but i'll make it anyway. i do not believe that it is God's will for every child to be conceived. i believe that pregnancies are often purely the consequences of the actions of the parent(s). (i put the plural in parenthesis because a rape victim or incest victim is generally not a willing participant.) but once conception occurs, God does knit together the child in the womb. why He forms some children with birth defects is something i may ask Him when i see Him in heaven.

God is not cruel. He would never create a person for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

[Floatingaxe]

This seems a strange argument to me, LadyC; this means that God also makes children with congenital birth defects or diseases such as progeria, forms Siamese twins, makes some babies be with their organs on the outside of their body and lets children be formed as the result of incestuous relations. If these things aren't mistakes and they aren't cruel, then what are they?

homosexuality is a sin, one that God abhors, and one that He says will cause eternal separation from His kingdom. brith defects, diseases, etc. may seem cruel to human standards, but they will not cause eternal separation from God. children born of incest is not a sin of the child that will cause the child to be separated from God... it is a result of the sin of the parent(s).

by the way, many disagree with me here on this one point, but i'll make it anyway. i do not believe that it is God's will for every child to be conceived. i believe that pregnancies are often purely the consequences of the actions of the parent(s). (i put the plural in parenthesis because a rape victim or incest victim is generally not a willing participant.) but once conception occurs, God does knit together the child in the womb. why He forms some children with birth defects is something i may ask Him when i see Him in heaven.

God is not cruel. He would never create a person for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

Excellent, Lady

[sylvan3]

This seems a strange argument to me, LadyC; this means that God also makes children with congenital birth defects or diseases such as progeria, forms Siamese twins, makes some babies be with their organs on the outside of their body and lets children be formed as the result of incestuous relations. If these things aren't mistakes and they aren't cruel, then what are they?

homosexuality is a sin, one that God abhors, and one that He says will cause eternal separation from His kingdom.

Which commandment does homosexuality break? Why would it matter anyway? Supposedly, if someone believes in Christ, they are saved. I have heard from Charles Stanley that all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven once someone accepts Christ. Is Charles Stanley wrong?

The point is that homosexuality, if one believes it is a sin, is no different than any other sin that man commits. Therefore, if one is a believer and also a homosexual it shouldn't be a problem according to that philosophy.

Edited August 8, 2006 by sylvan3

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Nope Charles Stanley is not wrong. However for future sins to be forgiven they must be repented of.

Repenting of a sin means to turn away from it. To turn completely the other way and decide to walk Gods way in the Spirit and not mans way in the flesh anymore. Does God account for our weaknesses in the flesh? Surely. Thus when we stumble an fall we always can return and be forgiven.

However to continue on in the sin with no regret or turning from it. Denotes not an attitude of repentance. Rather it takes Gods Grace for granted.

Ro

[Guest LadyC]

what command does it break? i take it you haven't read scripture, which indicates in many passages both old and new testament that God finds homosexuality an abomination and that those who continue to practice it without repentance will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

what does that matter? nothing to those who don't care i suppose. but it matters greatly to those who desire to know God, serve God, and live eternally with God.

[secondeve]

secondeve,

I have seen you vehemently defend the gay/lesbian community in numerous posts.

If you don't mind me asking...are you a lesbian?

*laughs* No, I'm not a lesbian - happily involved with my male partner, thank you all the same. I defend the community because I see no wrong in it; because I do think a lot of persecution and ignorance gets thrown their way; and because I don't see anything unnatural in being gay. In my mind, you might as well persectue people who have red hair, either because they were born with it or because they dyed it that colour. It makes just as much sense to me.

I am of the mind that once a person "gives over" into that perverse mindset of homosexuality, then there is a "giving over" into the demonic. When that happens, certain changes can certainly occur in the brain, and can be detected chemically or otherwise, but it is all the result of satanic control and tampering.

This all the tests in the world may show a difference in the brain, but it occurs AFTER the release of one's control to the evil, not before.

Interesting hypothesis. What do you say, then, about children as young as four displaying same-sex preferences? I think I've brought this up in a similar thread before, but there was a case in the US a few years back when a four or five year old boy always wanted to to wear dresses and asked his parents to call him Aurora, after his favourite Disney princess. The media fuss was that they accepted this from him, and didn't try and correct him. And, just as some straight people will tell you their first crush was on so-and-so in primary school, the same is true of those who are gay.

Besides which - if the mindset is there to give in to for people that young - or in anyone, for that matter - doesn't this imply a "born with" status? A great number of people in history were persecuted or killed for being gay - you can't tell me that, knowing this stigma, punishment and whatnot awaited them, all gay adults in those times and places chose to make their lives miserable, secret and painful. Maybe some would - but not all. How can you explain that?

[Guest LadyC]

you're right 2ndeve, there IS a lot of ignorance about homosexuality... mostly among those who support it. there's a lot of hype in its defense that is unproven scientifically but yet people like to spout off all this scientific evidence which the scientific community rejects as being statistically insignificant at best.

but mostly the ignorance about homosexuality is as it pertains to humanity and God.

and it's ok though that you see nothing wrong with it. what matters is that God sees something terribly wrong with it, and he's the one who will judge their eternal souls.

i'm not a bigot, i don't hate homosexuals, but i do hurt for their lack of a relationship with their creator.

[secondeve]

what command does it break? i take it you haven't read scripture, which indicates in many passages both old and new testament that God finds homosexuality an abomination and that those who continue to practice it without repentance will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

what does that matter? nothing to those who don't care i suppose. but it matters greatly to those who desire to know God, serve God, and live eternally with God.

I know that gayness as a sin is mentioned in Leviticus and (I think) Deuteronomy and Isiah - I'm not going to dispute that. But it would be interesting to know what reason, if any, the Bible gives for it being evil.

This might seem an odd question, so I suppose I'll have to clarify. Murder is bad because it harms someone other than the perpetrator, ie: the victim. It is therefore practical to rule against it. The same goes for theft, lying and adultery. Regardless of whether or not you believe in God, there are commonsense reasons for why these things are harmful to a society. Sex outside of marriage is - to me - a greyer area than these. With exceptions of rape, it doesn't hurt the two willing participants - but in certain societies, stigma and the possibility of being an unwed mother, where these things can be harmful or difficult, would make the law a reasonable precaution. One can believe that marriage is the only fit instutition for sex without believing in God, because all cultures have some concept of it. Still, in societies where those stigmas don't exist and where contraception is available, the single remaining imperative is to obey God; and if God does not exist, then the command is no longer logical or commonsensical.

Then we have homosexuality. Unless in cases of rape, it hurts nobody. There can be no unwanted children - which leaves the only imperative not to practise it at "God says it's morally bad" and "God says you should only have sex in marriage." So, I suppose I'm wondering if the Bible offers up any reasons apart from these as to why it's bad - ie, reasons which might apply, with commonsense, in a secular context as well as a Christian one.

[billie]

The reason the Bible gives for it being evil lies in God's sovereignty. He made men and women to be together. When we do things outside of God's purpose for it, that alone makes it evil. Homosexuality hurts the people involved in it because it causes them to miss out on God's best for them, His plan for their life. He loves us, so what hurts us, hurts Him. Sex outside of marriage hurts people for the same reasons. When someone's intimate with someone else before marriage, the intimacy of two people after marriage's affected, not beyond repair, but it's harder. I value intimacy in my relationships, so waiting would've been a logical, common-sense thing for me, if I'd have known that back then.

[Floatingaxe]

My goodness! It goes against the purposes for which we were created! It sears our souls when we go against God's purposes.

We are commanded to be fruitful and multiply--when you pervert that then there is no following that command is there? Just like Satan to cause such a perversity.