Death of a Christian

[apothanein kerdos]

What are the signs that a culture is dying?

* Lowered education

* Lower morality

* More moral apathy of the few intellects around

* Lack of direction

* Lack of unity

* Increase in disease, especially disease that destroys birth

* Privatized faith

In the western world, Christianity is dying. We can advocate that Christianity can never escape a region of the world, however we cannot argue against the fact that it can become culturally ineffective. The last tenet of Christianity that affects our culture is solely through a legal route, and as we are quickly discovering that even this is closing up. We can say, "Please Holy Spirit, move across the nation!" We can keep declaring, "God is going to open people's hearts!"

My question is how? There is always pre-evangelism involved...even when people seemingly come to Christ "out of no where" there has still been a reason established along the line. Even Christ refers to us planting the seed and letting God grow that seed. The thing is, the seed cannot be planted if we are not culturally effective.

In light of this, it is my belief that American Christianity will be dead, or completely ineffective, at the death of the current generation (25+). When those who are now teenagers are old, they will be the last ones to have remembered the great "cultural war" or any acts of Christians in the modern times. Christians will still attend church 70 years from now, they will be in their buildings, but they will have no effect on the culture. We will be nothing more than the senile grandparent that someone has stuffed into the nursing home. This is the path of Christianity at the moment. God will not intervene unless we are willing to bring about true revival (that which targets the whole of man, not just some silly hand waving, crying, singing, and an emotional response to Jesus).

Only when we become truly humbled before God and give up our pursuit of that which is big and plentiful will we begin to see redemption take place. Only when we give up hedonism within Christianity will be begin to plant the seed for revival.

Mark my words, within the next 70 years if this path is not changed, Christianity will become worthless in America.

[Marnie]

Mark my words, within the next 70 years if this path is not changed, Christianity will become worthless in America.

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

[firehill]

Mark my words, within the next 70 years if this path is not changed, Christianity will become worthless in America.

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

AMEN

[ayin jade]

Wow, you were generous. I gave it 10 to 20 years myself.

[nebula]

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

What about Europe?

[Leonard]

I think what Sister Marnie is saying, is that the Church will survive the almost sure coming collapse of the United States. And A.K. is NOT saying 'Jesus will cease to exist!' He's saying that the U.S. is in grave danger.

In that I think we can all agree. The collapse of a nation is NEVER pleasant. If we Christians cannot importune with God through prayer and repentence for this great nation, if we cannot find the wherewithal to woo our neighbors to know and love the Lord, and LIVE LIKE CHRISTIANS, this nation will assuredly see God's mighty judgment. If God does not save this nation, our children and grandchildren will see mass death, destruction, pestilence, conquest, natural disasters, and in my opinion possibly even a nuclear holocaust wiping out scores of millions.

Now I am no prophet, nor a prophet's son, but the righteous are instructed to 'be wise, and understand the times and seasons....'

Brother A.K., your post was spot on! Christians looking at this have I think instinctively realized that all these problems can be traced back to what befalls '...the nation that forgets God.' Rationality itself--as Descartes demonstrated--only has it's intellectual underpinnings when we posit a rational God, Who then becomes the only way that 'clear ideas' can exist. Most people have never thought these issues through clearly, but on a 'gut level' realize that without God to grant 'meaning,' Meaning itself ceases to exist. This is the basis of post-modernist thought. Although the typical post-modernist might state it instead as every 'meaning' has as much value as every other meaning, that is really saying 'meaning does not exist,' for the meaning of any meaning lies in it's value relative to other competing meanings. If meanings are no longer competing in our minds for higher or lower relative value, then ALL meaning is lost.

As Christians we have realized we have to somehow reach into this post-modernist 'mush' and bring people to faith. The Emergent Church movement is a most wretched failure in this regard, although they are very proud of their post-modernist 'faith void of meaning.' The problem, that for the Emergent Church (of course we are speaking in generalities here, but I have no problem with generalities; without them, communication becomes impossible!) is that the 'faith' they preach is essentially void of content. Empty faith is not The Faith. This faith-void-of-content cannot be salvific. Although they seem to really believe they are 'reaching out to the post-modernist, post-Christian culture,' I would aver they are 'reaching out' to it with shear imagined 'faith.' So they are NOT changing this culture. It is like the man who awakens in a hospital after a horrible accident, and screams "Doctor! I can't feel my legs! Did you amputate them?" And the Doctor responds: "No, no, no. Calm down! Your legs are fine. I amputated your arms...."

It seems to me that our job of so-called 'pre-evanglism' then is to argue for 'meaning' itself; to help people find their intellectual 'arms' if you will, so they can again 'grasp' meaning.

Well at least those are my ravings. But then again, I'm something of a heretic!

[apothanein kerdos]

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

What about Europe?

along with:

I think what Sister Marnie is saying, is that the Church will survive the almost sure coming collapse of the United States. And A.K. is NOT saying 'Jesus will cease to exist!' He's saying that the U.S. is in grave danger.

Exactly. I'm not saying that Christianity will disappear off the face of the earth. What I am arguing is that within 70 years Christianity will become completely culturally irrelevant. We will be a mark for historians, something that people look back on as part of a tradition, but that has no real effect on the lives they lead.

As for the rest of your post, you are spot on. They are a perfect example of what Christianity will become in the future; a watered down privatized faith that has no impace on the community around it.

[Marnie]

I see where you are coming from. My thought is that the Church always thrives during times of persecution and so on. The Church has always struggled during times of peace and prosperity. Today she has both. I think the influence the Church has in America is largely a result of Godly past; her influence in the 21st century, I think, is an illusion. Also, I refuse to believe there are as many legitimate "born again," genuine believers in America as our "Christian" media claim. I think that if push came to shove, there would be a great "falling away." Is this bad? I don't think so. I think this is way it has always been.

As far as Europe goes, the Church is alive and well, just smaller than it was. Again, in the wake of every revival in history we see this happening. In John 2 we read where Jesus cleansed the Temple the first time then went around Jerusalem attracting a crowd because He performed miracles. John says that our Lord wasn't interested in them because "He knew what was in a man," that is, He knows man's heart, and is not impressed with "surface faith." This throng of people are the ones that left Jesus when His teaching got hard. I think it is the same today--churches that spend an hour or more "worshipping" (that sounds and looks more like a concert than a church service) and five minutes in the Word have standing room only, but churches that preach and teach the Word of G-d resolutely seldom attract the same crowds. Far too many churches are full of goats, not sheep, as evidenced by the state of their lives and their witness in the community.

I guess my point was and is, is that the TRUE Church will always prevail, regardless of the culture it is in.

[nebula]

I think what Sister Marnie is saying, is that the Church will survive the almost sure coming collapse of the United States. And A.K. is NOT saying 'Jesus will cease to exist!' He's saying that the U.S. is in grave danger.

OK - we've got an apples and oranges discussion going on here.

If I am reading this right - AK is looking at the church in America and seeing Laodicea (sp? )

Marnie is looking at "the overcomers."

In terms of the Church of the overcomers (if you will), "the gates of Hell will not prevail."

But in terms of "Christianity" at large in this nation - it is failing and culture is dying with it.

Sure, the remnant will be saved - but can the nation? Is it too late?

[LadyRaven]

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

What about Europe?

Well if the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, I'm sure Europe doesn't have much of a chance either...

I read the topic title and I thought this was predicting the death of some christian somewhere, not the death of the culture.