The Toronto Blessing, and Benny Hinn, etc

[nebula]

Neb, I am full fledged Pentecostal and have been all of my life. I, for one, have not delved into saying anything derogatory about the works of the Spirit.

I know you haven't -

but others have and do, and that is what I am angry about.

[amor]

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. (Luke 18:11)

Careful!

But the scriptures are quite clear about how we should react to these money grabbing fraudsters

Jesus entered into the temple of God, and drove out all of those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the money changers' tables and the seats of those who sold the doves.

13 He said to them, "It is written,'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a den of robbers!"

[LadyRaven]

Hey, if that's the game you all want to play -

Let's talk about the wonderful witness of "buy my books and tapes" Hank Hanegraaff.

Ok. Whatever that means. I'm not sure what this line of discussion is called but its not logical or reasonable.

The main reason is that Benny Hinn is a false prophet or heretic is not because Mr Hanagraff says so. He has proven he is by the words out of his own mouth...he does not need Hank to speak for him (or against him) and therefore Mr Hanegraff is not relevent.

Second, lets just assume for arguement that mr hanegraff is a money grubber for a second. Does that make Mr Hinn any less of a heretic and false prophet? No it doesn't. Mr Hinn is not a heretic because Hanegraff sells tapes, or vice versa. These two people are two separate unconnected discussions.

The only way these two even could have anything in common is that they both have ministries and sell stuff. However, I never said Hinn was a heretic cause he's rich or because he writes books and I honestly don't care what his net worth is. See, if he were writing about good doctrine and he got rich doing it, I'd be happy for him. You are supposed to enjoy the fruits of your labours. If people willingly gave to a "charismatic" (ie in personality) leader which preached a powerful message of truth and his ministry gave him a percent as salary...well...I really don't care as long as he was above reproach (ie not engaged in anything illegal or immoral). Hinns doctrines are not dangerous cause he drives a car most of us couldn't afford if we tried and has a house that if sold could build new houses for all my relatives...his doctrines are dangerous because they are wrong. The only reason his money gets mentioned is that little old ladies and well meaning God fearing Christians send him money thinking they are doing something GOOD.

That being said...

If Mr Hanegraff is guilty of some sort of wrong doing, and you can prove it, go for it...though I would recommend another topic as it is not under the blanket of the Toronto Blessing and is therefore not really pertinent to the topic at hand. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. Honestly, if he's guilty of something scandalous then I do believe it would be something you should inform your brothers and sisters about so that they don't support a ministry which is somehow less than ethical.

[LadyRaven]

If you are willing to include Hinn and his type under the umbrella of Christianity then you should have no problems with JW's or Mormons or even Muslims.

I have issues with attacks on Hinn et al becoming attacks on the the power of the Holy Spirit.

And that's all Cessationist do.

lets just assume that all cessationists are as vitrolic as you say. Does this mean that Hinn isn't a heretic? No it doesn't, it would just mean that cessationists are vitrolic. You can't attack the person who is making a claim if their character has no effect on the claim. I'm a cessationist (or a modified one anyway). Let's just pretend for a second that I'm wrong and all you bouncy ones are right. Even so this does not make Hinn's doctrine correct. He's made false prophecies and preaches heresy. There are many many many "charismatic" people I know of who preach well within the realm of orthodoxy, I just happen to disagree with them. If they are correct, Hinn is still a heretic...if they are incorrect, Hinn is still a heretic. See? This makes no difference.

As I also recall, you are one of the first to pounce on Roman Catholics

No.

I have debated Catholic practices - but not Catholics themselves.

You should learn the difference.

The difference here is that Roman Catholics are not heretics. I believe, very sincerely that they are wrong. I'll fight one any day of the week, however, when I do debate one, if they profess to have a saving knowledge of Christ I have no reason to doubt it by virtue of them defending their beliefs.

[nebula]

I picked on Hanegraaf because he's famous for attacking any minister who believes inthe giftings of the Spirit.

My experience is that most of the Hinn-haters are Hanegraaff-lovers.

What disturbs me is that most (I know, Ronald, not all) of the loudest criticisers are more uptight over the spiritual aspects than the are the money aspects.

Denying all supernatual healings is just as pathetic as demanding such, IMO.

[LadyRaven]

SW, comparing what Neb is doing to what Hinn has done is not too slick of a move by you. While I may not see the fruits from Hinn, I have seen them from Neb and I, for one, think you owe her an apology. Also, even though I don't think Hinn is the real deal, we need to be cautious in saying someone is anointed by Satan.

Yeah, I believe Neb is a SIC. A tenderhearted one too.

I'm judging Hinn based on statements he's made himself. A false prophet does not come from God. If you come claiming to be from God and are not exactly WHO are you coming from?

[nebula]

What is an "SIC"?

[Scarletprayers]

Neb, I don't want to speak for LadyRaven but I believe SIC stand for Sister In Christ.

[nebula]

Gotcha!

[LadyRaven]

I picked on Hanegraaf because he's famous for attacking any minister who believes inthe giftings of the Spirit.

My experience is that most of the Hinn-haters are Hanegraaff-lovers.

What disturbs me is that most (I know, Ronald, not all) of the loudest criticisers are more uptight over the spiritual aspects than the are the money aspects.

Denying all supernatual healings is just as pathetic as demanding such, IMO.

God can speak through a donkey so I'm sure He can heal someone who is listening to Benny Hinn. I am more concerned about his spiritual things not because I'm out to disprove miracles. I do believe they occur occasionally or at least they can, just not as often as Charismatic ministries insist they can and do. This is why I call myself a modified cessationist, I'm skeptical of glossolalia but it does not bother me. I'm less skeptical - in theory anyway - of healings or prophecy. However I hold to a very rigid test for these gifts, based on scripture.

One of these, for prophecy, comes directly from scripture. If the man says he's speaking for God, in prophecy, and it does not come true then the man is a false prophet and is not to be trusted.