Homosexuality and Christians

[pennyinabottlecap]

If someone sins and feels no moral guilt abotu this sin, about offending God, and does not desire change (in other words, they see no problem with it), then Biblically that is grounds to be removed.

If someone, however, struggles with a sin, does fall into it from time to time, but realizes the danger of it and works to move away from it....that person should be embraced.

i agree to a point, but is it about guilt? did god only embrace those who felt guilty about sin? does He not love marilyn manson who feels no guilt whatsoever living in sin? an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point. just becuse someone continues to push away, He doesnt leave them out to dry, and if we claim to be part of the body of God, then can we leave them out to dry?

Actually, those who feel no guilty, though we can engage them in discussion as to why they should feel guilt, should not be among the fellowship. You are placing a higher emphasis on "love" (which I believe even your idea of Biblical love is off) over personal holiness. Yes, we are called to reach out to people, to go into all the world and make disciples. But this is one verse contained within 1,000's....and is not even the greatest commandment. THe greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind. Anything that would put any of that in danger, or put someone else in danger of this, must be avoided.

So assume you bring in a non-repentant homosexual to the church in order to reach out to him. He does not believe he is sinning and therefor econtinues about in his sin. He befriends another male adult at the church, who has been struggling with homosexuality, and eventually convinces him that this sin is okay. At this point, we have done a very unloving thing; we have let someone trying to repent to God be devoured by a wolf. We have allowed the greatest commandment to be violated and though we may feel pious and loving in allowing an unrepentand homosexual in our church, we have done so by sacrificing a truly repentant brother in the process.

We need to look at the bigger picture. We can reach out to all, but church is not about evangelism. When we meet at church it isn't to get people saved, it's to fellowship and grow from other believers. This is why Paul instructs the various churches over 10 times to remove sinful people (those who refused to repent) from their midsts. He did not say "don't reach out to unrepentant sinners" but instead did say to exclude them from fellowship within the church.

It really is a thin line...on one hand you become too exclusive but on the other you become too inclusive.

( i love this response and i'd like to confess now that a lot of my questions after my actual paragraph are merely to play devil's advocate)

please see my clarification responses, 'cause i left out a few crucial details.

[pennyinabottlecap]

Well Pennyinabottlecap, was the Pastor aware of that at the time? Did he know she was mearly struggling with sinful desires or did he believe she was engaging in sin on a regular basis with no remorse? It makes a great deal of difference.

yes, unfortuanutely. Butero, please understand that a lot of my questions are merely to play devil's advocate. it's just nice to get things out on the floor. he knew it was a struggle, but because of rough spots where she fell back into the sin and repents but the temptation remains, the church gave up.

[Floatingaxe]

Penny...

It's our job as Christians to help people come to repentance. Especially true in the lives of those who say they are believers. But it is by their fruit we know them. Does this woman have any fruit? Has she brought any to Christ? Likely not. So, you could safely assume she is not a true believer. You need to consider her an unbeliever and try to win her to the Lord.

Does she have remorse for her sin? Does she want to turn away from it and follow Christ? If she is not wanting to be led or taught truth, then you need to leave her be, but leave her with the knowledge that you are there for her, and that you love her in the Lord.

yes and i'm sry, i've failed to clarify that she is a converted christian, who came out of homosexuality, but since the temptation is stillthere, and it's a constant struggle, she's still seen as the "lesbian", and was kikd out. it was fairly obvious she felt remorse, but it's a difficult transition going from the fruit of the flesh to the fruit of the spirit. instead of help, she got removed.

If that is indeed the case, she needs to approach the leadership once again and explain herself clearly that she is not engaging in the sin, but rather has trouble with her desires. That is a common plague of man, which needs to be addressed and helped. She needs someone to be accountable to, just like a man who struggles with pornography. She needs people to pray for her and over her for deliverance...which, to me is the most important thing.

Perhaps the church she is interested in is not the one for her specific troubles. She needs a truly spirit-filled, bible believing church to help her find her freedom in Christ. I will remember her, and ask God to help her find that place where she can belong and grow in God, free of this ugly entrapment.

Blessings!

[st. Worm]

Church discipline is an important aspect in the life of any real church. However, the purpose of it is not to punish but to bring to repentance, to restore to fellowship. That is the goal. Every church should have a process for discipline that could even lead to excommunication. However, excommunication should not be the first step in the process but the last. Also, it is not the job of individuals in a church to drive away people. The process of discipline should be carried out by the elders.

sw

[pennyinabottlecap]

Why would they put her out just for being tempted to do something? That doesn't make sense. And 4 different churches? Something doesn't seem right to me...

It doesn't to me either. That is why I wonder if the Pastors of these churches knew she had stopped this sin, or were under the impression she was still in the lifestyle?

that's one of the reasons i made the post. to know that it's acknowledged as wrong. but after speaking to all 4 churches, it's not all so bad. the seeds that were planted from the original church made her hyper-aware of herself and any past sin. another church claimed that they didnt remember her, another claimed he had a discussion with her and she reacted poorly, the first one it was more the congregation looking at her funny that made her feel unwelcome. i just didnt want to type it all out and explain it, but i probably should have.

sorry, first big post not quite used to it.

[KeilanS]

Why would they put her out just for being tempted to do something? That doesn't make sense. And 4 different churches? Something doesn't seem right to me...

It doesn't to me either. That is why I wonder if the Pastors of these churches knew she had stopped this sin, or were under the impression she was still in the lifestyle?

that's one of the reasons i made the post. to know that it's acknowledged as wrong. but after speaking to all 4 churches, it's not all so bad. the seeds that were planted from the original church made her hyper-aware of herself and any past sin. another church claimed that they didnt remember her, another claimed he had a discussion with her and she reacted poorly, the first one it was more the congregation looking at her funny that made her feel unwelcome. i just didnt want to type it all out and explain it, but i probably should have.

sorry, first big post not quite used to it.

Haha no problem, I'm just glad we're all seeing this the same way now!

[pennyinabottlecap]

Why would they put her out just for being tempted to do something? That doesn't make sense. And 4 different churches? Something doesn't seem right to me...

It doesn't to me either. That is why I wonder if the Pastors of these churches knew she had stopped this sin, or were under the impression she was still in the lifestyle?

that's one of the reasons i made the post. to know that it's acknowledged as wrong. but after speaking to all 4 churches, it's not all so bad. the seeds that were planted from the original church made her hyper-aware of herself and any past sin. another church claimed that they didnt remember her, another claimed he had a discussion with her and she reacted poorly, the first one it was more the congregation looking at her funny that made her feel unwelcome. i just didnt want to type it all out and explain it, but i probably should have.

sorry, first big post not quite used to it.

Haha no problem, I'm just glad we're all seeing this the same way now!

haha amen.

praise Him.

[KarenJo5]

I was raised in a true Christian home,and was in church just about every time the doors opened growing up.I knew the truth of the Bible, but still for about 3 of my teen-age years before I accepted Christ I went through an extremely wild stage of my life.Now if I had been asked to leave the church because of the great many sins I was committing each and every day,where would I be now? Would I be a born again christian or would I have been so hurt and angry that I would still be on my way straight to hell?I am from a small town,everybody knows everybody so yes I am quite sure most of the people in the church were aware of my "any thing you can get away with and some you can't "lifestyle.

[Guest humility]

a pretty controversial subject for anyone but wat the heck.

i should probably start this by letting y'all know i work as a worship leader and occasional speaker. At one of the nights i played a worship set, and i was intense. fantastic response and everyone connected with God. but after the set, a woman in her early 20's came up to me crying, and asked, "why does God hate me?" when i asked her to explain, she said she was a lesbian, and her church said they weren't going to necessarily ban her from the church, but that it would be appreciated if she didnt attend their services. she went to the services anyway, but she was treated so poorly she couldnt take it anymore. she transferred churches 4 times and the same thing happened over, and over, and over again. she felt so dirty when christians took their so called "initiative" with nothing but good intentions told her that homosexuality is a sin and if she didnt stop, she would go to hell.

I'll finish her story in a second, but what in the heck are we as a christian body doing? please understand that i dont condone homosexuality, but i will also NOT condone the actions of any church who does such a thing, and i believe neither does God! I know that not all christians will kick out a homosexual, but i've watched and seen people shunning, ridiculing, mocking, avoiding, and excluding homosexuals from on and offstage. this woman was the first to approach me, and i've spoken on it since, but what is going on? are we in the position of God? why do the bold christians approach homosexuals as if they were on a mission from God, but to talk to someone about their heterosexual sex life avoid it like the plague? who are we to judge them on any sin? If a liar comes into our church, we dont ask them to leave, we don't go up and discuss their shortcomings of the kingdom of God. why should we do so to the homosexual? are not all sins equal in the eyes of God? can God accept one sin and not the other? absolutely Not!

Back to the woman. After calming her down a bit, i apologized as a christian, for what her churches had done to her, because as a christian, i am a member of the church, and i, as we all should, should accept the responsibilty. i told her God doesn't hate her, and He loves her just as much as anyone else.

we talked for a while about her personal life, we prayed, and she left. then the Father of one of her churches that asked her not to come anymore came up to me and asked if she had "confessed her sinful path" to me. i said yes, and asked why he asked her not to attend his church anymore. he said that if she was to live sinfully, he wouldn't condone her behavior and allow her to come and hinder the congregation in his church. i'm not going to lie, i was angered by this. pretty passionately, i said "first off, any church is God's, not yours. second, The church is an invitation to meet with God, not some kind of priveledge to pull away as a punishment. 3rd, have you ever lied?" he admitted he had. "and is not all sin equal?" he admitted in God's sight, it is. "then are you not as guilty of homosexuality as she is?" he started to get as huffy as i was so i ended our conversation and i wasn't invited back. but several memebers of his church still stay in contact with me, and have become friends with the woman who i was speaking about.

I just felt the need to share that. i know it's controversial, and i'm sorry for that, but it needs to be said. God loves homosexuals as much as He loves me.

i love you.

I am completely with you on that stance. The problem with alot of people in the church is that we judge in the flesh and not show compassion and understanding through the spirit. If we were shun by our friends, family, or church in our time of sin where would we be. I don't believe that we all came in to this world without sin and did not commit sins after giving ourself to the lord. People sin continually until God changes us and even then we sin, but he sends a comforter to convict us. I believe more people will come to the lord if we allow God to change them through the word and speaking through us. THIS IS PREJUDICE IN THE CHURCH. Allow God to remove those who refuse to accept him because devil can not stand to be in the presence of God. Allow his presence to do the perfecting.

[Floatingaxe]

a pretty controversial subject for anyone but wat the heck.

i should probably start this by letting y'all know i work as a worship leader and occasional speaker. At one of the nights i played a worship set, and i was intense. fantastic response and everyone connected with God. but after the set, a woman in her early 20's came up to me crying, and asked, "why does God hate me?" when i asked her to explain, she said she was a lesbian, and her church said they weren't going to necessarily ban her from the church, but that it would be appreciated if she didnt attend their services. she went to the services anyway, but she was treated so poorly she couldnt take it anymore. she transferred churches 4 times and the same thing happened over, and over, and over again. she felt so dirty when christians took their so called "initiative" with nothing but good intentions told her that homosexuality is a sin and if she didnt stop, she would go to hell.

I'll finish her story in a second, but what in the heck are we as a christian body doing? please understand that i dont condone homosexuality, but i will also NOT condone the actions of any church who does such a thing, and i believe neither does God! I know that not all christians will kick out a homosexual, but i've watched and seen people shunning, ridiculing, mocking, avoiding, and excluding homosexuals from on and offstage. this woman was the first to approach me, and i've spoken on it since, but what is going on? are we in the position of God? why do the bold christians approach homosexuals as if they were on a mission from God, but to talk to someone about their heterosexual sex life avoid it like the plague? who are we to judge them on any sin? If a liar comes into our church, we dont ask them to leave, we don't go up and discuss their shortcomings of the kingdom of God. why should we do so to the homosexual? are not all sins equal in the eyes of God? can God accept one sin and not the other? absolutely Not!

Back to the woman. After calming her down a bit, i apologized as a christian, for what her churches had done to her, because as a christian, i am a member of the church, and i, as we all should, should accept the responsibilty. i told her God doesn't hate her, and He loves her just as much as anyone else.

we talked for a while about her personal life, we prayed, and she left. then the Father of one of her churches that asked her not to come anymore came up to me and asked if she had "confessed her sinful path" to me. i said yes, and asked why he asked her not to attend his church anymore. he said that if she was to live sinfully, he wouldn't condone her behavior and allow her to come and hinder the congregation in his church. i'm not going to lie, i was angered by this. pretty passionately, i said "first off, any church is God's, not yours. second, The church is an invitation to meet with God, not some kind of priveledge to pull away as a punishment. 3rd, have you ever lied?" he admitted he had. "and is not all sin equal?" he admitted in God's sight, it is. "then are you not as guilty of homosexuality as she is?" he started to get as huffy as i was so i ended our conversation and i wasn't invited back. but several memebers of his church still stay in contact with me, and have become friends with the woman who i was speaking about.

I just felt the need to share that. i know it's controversial, and i'm sorry for that, but it needs to be said. God loves homosexuals as much as He loves me.

i love you.

I am completely with you on that stance. The problem with alot of people in the church is that we judge in the flesh and not show compassion and understanding through the spirit. If we were shun by our friends, family, or church in our time of sin where would we be. I don't believe that we all came in to this world without sin and did not commit sins after giving ourself to the lord. People sin continually until God changes us and even then we sin, but he sends a comforter to convict us. I believe more people will come to the lord if we allow God to change them through the word and speaking through us. THIS IS PREJUDICE IN THE CHURCH. Allow God to remove those who refuse to accept him because devil can not stand to be in the presence of God. Allow his presence to do the perfecting.

Why should God do the job He gave us to do? The devil sure can suffer to sit in the presence of Him and His people. He's pretty good at it. I have seen it, and it is perplexing, but it's his "in your face" attitude.