TheProcess Posted August 20, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2006 Perhaps someone would like to tell us that Luther wasn't a "real" Christian? Of course he wasn't- any more than the murderer Calvin. All of the Reformers or their followers were quite prepared to kill anabaptists, who were their true enemies. Luther was not even the first to discover justification by faith. His list of genuine achievements is rather small, and of doubtful value. If they weren't real Christians then it is strange that many Christians still read their writings today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted August 20, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2006 Some Muslims will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Quran, and some Christians will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Bible. Sometimes they will even use the excuse, "God can do whatever he likes, whatever God does is good by definition", which would put the entire religion outside of criticism, whatever it contains. Christians and Muslims are able to see the faults of each others scripture but they can't look honestly at their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted August 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Some Muslims will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Quran, and some Christians will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Bible. And some nonbelievers will make up anything they can try to not accept Jesus at His Words. Funny how it all comes around, huh? t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyGunivere Posted August 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 454 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/19/1985 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Look at their own........I think sin comes into play here...I'm not sure what christians your talking about...Sure we sin everyday but we know when it happens and when to forgive ourselves that is that practice.....I agree with you Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted August 20, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2006 Perhaps someone would like to tell us that Luther wasn't a "real" Christian? Of course he wasn't- any more than the murderer Calvin. All of the Reformers or their followers were quite prepared to kill anabaptists, who were their true enemies. Luther was not even the first to discover justification by faith. His list of genuine achievements is rather small, and of doubtful value. If they weren't real Christians then it is strange that many Christians still read their writings today... I think that there are very few Christians who have read more than a few words of Luther, even less of Calvin, and probably none at all of Zwingli, Melancthon, etc. Most Anglicans/Episcopalians have never read Hooker. Christians read, apart from the Bible, books by evangelicals, particularly modern ones, from the 19th century onwards. It should be realised that evangelicalism arose well after the Reformation, as result of dissatisfaction with Lutheranism, with the likes of Wesley. There is a distinct difference between the two categories that many do not appreciate. And I guess that quite a few Methodists have never read much of Wesley, except what they sing! Now if you can find some compromising anti-semitic material of Wesley, that would be something. But even if you did (and it is highly unlikely), the Scripture is completely uncompromising about anti-semitism, at a fundamental level. The racialist mature Christian simply does not exist. 'Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.' Col 3:11 NIV (Scythians were commonly thought of as wild persons not much better than animals. If they are 'in', everybody is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted August 21, 2006 On paper and in history - if not now - Islam was tolerant of fellow "Peoples of the Book," ie, members of religions with bona fide holy books, and particularly Judaism and Christianity, because the Muslims revere Ishmael (Abraham) as well. Ishmael was Abraham? t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted August 21, 2006 On paper and in history - if not now - Islam was tolerant of fellow "Peoples of the Book," ie, members of religions with bona fide holy books, and particularly Judaism and Christianity, because the Muslims revere Ishmael (Abraham) as well. Ishmael was Abraham? t. Blimey! you learn something evey day on Worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Intelligence is the ONLY way to truth. Ecclesiastes 12.... 11 The words of the wise prod us to live well. They're like nails hammered home, holding life together. They are given by God, the one Shepherd. 12-13 But regarding anything beyond this, dear friend, go easy. There's no end to the publishing of books, and constant study wears you out so you're no good for anything else. The last and final word is this: Fear God. Do what he tells you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondeve Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted August 21, 2006 On paper and in history - if not now - Islam was tolerant of fellow "Peoples of the Book," ie, members of religions with bona fide holy books, and particularly Judaism and Christianity, because the Muslims revere Ishmael (Abraham) as well. Ishmael was Abraham? t. Yup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Well, I guess that changes things, huh? Anyway, let me help you out a little here on this one.... Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bore him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. Gen 16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. Gen 16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. Gen 16:6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. Gen 16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. Gen 16:9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spoke unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Gen 16:14 Wherefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. Gen 16:15 And Hagar bore Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bore, Ishmael. Gen 16:16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram. Read the whole chapter, but pay close attention to the bolds. Hope this helps! t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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