Is faith enough to save us from Hell?

[Ovedya]

yes of course. this is just the sorounding verses of what you had cited earlier

in Eph 2:8 it is speaking of a salvation by grace through faith right... now what kind of salvation is that??? is that from hell??? let us see what is the topic there...

in Eph also, same chapter verse 1 it says...

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Paul is speaking here about the sins, the trespsses, the KIND OF PEOPLE these member are before, and then what happen???.. let us continue the verse...

Eph 2:4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

you see that??? they are dead through SINS. but because of GOD's Love BY GRACE YE BEEN SAVED. what kind of salvation is that now??? THAT IS SALVATION FROM SIN. God will save you from sin By GRACE not BY WORKS becuse it is a GIFT. there is only one pre requisite to this salvation... and i think you will agree on me on this so i wont post the verse... THAT IS TO BE BORN AGAIN...

After you have been born again you have been saved from sins... BY GRACE...

now after that... what lies ahead??? can we just do whatever we wanted because we are born again??? let us continue the verses...

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

meaning we have to work after we have been saved from the sins, what kind of work??? WE HAVE TO WALK IN GOOD WORKS... what is the proof???

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You see, eventhough these Church members have been saved already, they still need to WORK OUT THEIR OWN SALVATION. which salvation is that now??? that is the one that you already posted...

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

if you will notice here Paul is speaking of the sme scenario, members in rome are also sinners but they HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED. but still there is WRATH that they need another salvation...

now your turn...

Antz,

You set the parameters of debate on this subject when you wrote the following in your first post

please site verse to support your answer, in that way we will be bounded by the Biblical principle not by our own interpretation

However, your above response relies entirely upon your own interpretation of the verses that you cited. Furthermore, you said that we should use "THE WHOLE BIBLE" in our responses. Yet I have not seen a single verse cited by you from the Old Testament. Why is that? Is it possible that there never has been such a concept of "contingient salvation" in the Bible?

The concept that you have attempted to describe in your second posting to this thread, regarding Epesians 2 and Romans 5 is that of initial salvation and complete. But rather than associating these two aspects of salvation as the Bible clearly does, your interpretation calls them separate.

Romans 5:9-10 completes a thought in an exposition regarding the aspect of justification way back in chapter 3. Justification is first defined by Paul in Romans 3:21-31. Then in 4:1-25 paul cites our prime example of justification by faith, Abraham. Finally in 5:1-11 Paul cites the result: "Therefore, having been justified out of faith we have peace toward God" (v.1). That "therefore," states a conclusion. So then Paul is concluding his exposition on the matter of justification (by faith) with vv. 1-11.

In this particular portion Paul first points to Christ, who is both the instrument of God's justification (Rom. 3:24), and the means by which the believers have access to God's abundant grace (See also Hebrews 4:16). Second in these verses is Paul's pointing to that grace, and our hope in Christ, for strength to endure trials. And finally in verses 9-10 Paul points to another hope which is assured through the death of Christ: "Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath."

Notice in verses 9 how Paul writes, "..We will be saved...from the wrath." The wrath spoken of here is none other than God's wrath which will be poured out upon all creation on the great day day of His judgment. But Paul didn't place any contingiencies in these verses, did he? He didn't write, "We might be saved, depending on the number of works we do and the quality of our works, etc..." He simply wrote, "we will be saved." Now how could Paul have arrived at such a conclusion? How could Paul have come to the end of an exposition such as this and say, "We will be saved..."? Well, he just completed an exposition regarding the one by whom and through whom we will be saved! It is because of Christ that, "we will be saved." And Paul's affirmation of this is verse 10: "For if we being enemies were reconciled to God throught he death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."

So you see, it is because of God's reconciliation through the death of His Son that we will be saved in His life. Why? Because Christ is the factor, the means, and the process by which we are saved. It is because of His all-inclusive death on the cross and His resurrection that we can be saved. Paul makes absolutely no qualms about this fact, and he never once adds anything of the natural realm to our salvation. It is all by Christ alone.

There are not differing salvations. There is only one salvation with differing aspects. Allow me to exaplin more fully:

No Christian familiar with anything of the Bible would argue against the fact that God has given us another life in Christ Jesus. Through our faith and confession of Christ Jesus we have been made new creations. We are a part of God's family because we have been given eternal life. Eternal life is nothing less than God's divine life.

In his letters to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians respectively, Paul wrote many times how believers in Christ are new creations, to the growth of the church as the Body of Christ, etc. He even used the human body as a metaphore to the Body of Christ. Because of this we can rightly say that salvation has an organic aspect. Salvation causes believers to be "born anew," (John 3:3; 7) and it causes them to "grow" (1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 3:18).

Now, because of the fall there is also a legal aspect to our salvation. Because all have fallen short of the glory of God, because all are fallen, and because all have committed offenses toward God, we need a salvation that satisfies God's righteousness and holiness. It is not remarkable therefore that Paul uses a word such as "reconciliation" to describe our salvation. In fact, in Romans 3-5 Paul's description of salvation is a very "legal description" of how Christ's operation on the cross has satisfied the righteous requirements of the Law and of God's holiness and righteousness.

So we have these two aspects of our salvation: legal and organic. You may ask why we have these two aspects. Well, that's because there are two aspects of the fall! On the one hand there are the offenses toward God of our sins, and on the other hand there is the indwelling nature of sin which causes us to commit those offenses. Our salvation through Jesus Christ therefore must have these two aspects - to deal with our offenses toward God and to deal with our inward nature. In 1 John 1:9 it says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Faithfulness speaks to Christ's ability to cleanse us from the inward nature of sin and righteousness speaks to Christ's satisfaction of the legal requirement of the law (See also 1 John 2:1). Also, forgiveness is for an outward offense and cleansing is for the inward nature of sin.

You wanted us to use the whole Bible in our response, so let me point to the book of Leviticus. In Leviticus 7 the priests would first sacrfice the animal, sprinkle its blood on the altar, and then eat of the sacrifice. The sprinkling of the blood is for the remission of the offense, and the eating of the sacrifice is for nourishment. This is a picture of Christ's death. Christ's blood is the factor by which God's righteousness is satisfied - for the offenses of sins (typified by the sin offering, btw), and it is also through Christ's death - by believing into His death and resurrection - that we have God's life, which gives us nourishment for our growth in life.

So you see, there are not two salvations. There is only one salvation with at least two aspects. Being "saved" may speak of initial regeneration. It also may speak of "one who is saved." And it may speak of "one who will be saved." But these are not separate salvations.

[RGR]

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[antz]

Well, supposing you back up what you just said with chapter and verse?

you are dragging me again away from the topic... is that ur Christian way??

anyway i will be replying on your long comments tomorrow... i feel sleepy coz i've been posting for 14 hrs...

[RGR]

Well, supposing you back up what you just said with chapter and verse?

you are dragging me again away from the topic... is that ur Christian way??

anyway i will be replying on your long comments tomorrow... i feel sleepy coz i've been posting for 14 hrs...

No, you're the one who told a previous poster to back up what she was saying with Scripture; I politely suggested that you do the same. Typical of those who like to post heretical stuff, they don't want to subject themselves to what they're asking others to do.

[cjrose]

Kabowd, you're not wrong.

I have to agree with billie. You are not wrong. Besides it has been a strange evening on these boards. It's almost as if the trouble makers decided to all come out at the same time and attack. I have to admit that when it comes to defending the faith I try desperately to be loving but with those who do have their own agenda and do not listen or absorb what we say but continue on with their own beliefs while discarding us completely except to start another insult to add on to another insult and so on. I am with you Kabowd... I don't have the energy and I admit that I end up just disengaging myself because I have realized there is nothing that can be said on our behalf that will be or can be integrated with whatever the heck they seem to be so aggressive and often rude.

If you do find the energy, I do look forward to reading your responses. You do sound kind of tired, hope you get some rest.

[Guest loveroftruth]

Kabowd, you're not wrong.

I have to agree with billie. You are not wrong. Besides it has been a strange evening on these boards. It's almost as if the trouble makers decided to all come out at the same time and attack. I have to admit that when it comes to defending the faith I try desperately to be loving but with those who do have their own agenda and do not listen or absorb what we say but continue on with their own beliefs while discarding us completely except to start another insult to add on to another insult and so on. I am with you Kabowd... I don't have the energy and I admit that I end up just disengaging myself because I have realized there is nothing that can be said on our behalf that will be or can be integrated with whatever the heck they seem to be so aggressive and often rude.

If you do find the energy, I do look forward to reading your responses. You do sound kind of tired, hope you get some rest.

good points antz!!!

I have read also in 1 cor 15:1 that we can only be saved from hell in the future if we will keep our stand as mentioned...

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

I hope and believe this forumn is a christian forumn that why It should be fair enough to all....

Edited August 17, 2006 by loveroftruth

[RGR]

How odd, loveroftruth, that you're a newbie and you're here to defend antz! Even more odd is the fact that your grammatical style is the same as antz! You both love to punctuate multiple times and you both have the same problem of not always capitalizing the first letter of the first word of a sentence. So, in other words, you're not playing anyone for a fool, antz.

antz=loveroftruth=antz=loveroftruth

[mikehev]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. -Romans 1:16

[antz]

How odd, loveroftruth, that you're a newbie and you're here to defend antz! Even more odd is the fact that your grammatical style is the same as antz! You both love to punctuate multiple times and you both have the same problem of not always capitalizing the first letter of the first word of a sentence. So, in other words, you're not playing anyone for a fool, antz.

antz=loveroftruth=antz=loveroftruth

(just to answer this quickly...)

really??? i thought it is not allowed to Christian (which you claim you are) to judge without enough witness or evidence??? that is a sign that you are not a Christian... you are a false witness... pointing fingers without basis...

anyway you can PM angel and ask him to check whatever check you need to do...

i just hope that this post will not be closed like what happen to the other topic...

[antz]

You raised some good point there but not entirely answering my question from the second post...

right now i am replying to your long post worth discussing but it might take sometime so i will just post this to let you know i am on it.