Remitting Sins

[Openly Curious]

Gee, I thought it was REALLY QUITE CLEAR. I don't understand all the dancing around it, and excuse making for it. I don't get all the hermeneutical gymnastics to avoid it. What we see in the above posts is the old "100 reasons why the Bible doesn't mean what it says, or say what it means" approach to Scripture.......

Hello Leonard,

I am actually taken aback by your post and sadden by it really because you offered nothing to the discussion. I have been listening to others views for balance for myself on this verse of scripture in my studies as I stated in the beginning of the thread and as I've seen thus far in the post that there are various opinions on it. It is a real shame that you couldn't have added yours into the thread. I believe in taken scripture for what it says but sometimes things can be misinterpreted and that is why i wanted others views in this regards. you have placed a damper on my spirit.

For Leonard the thread is now closed as far as I am concerned

I thank all those who responded with their thoughts and appreciated them very much so.

OC

[pointer]

John 20:23

This was said to those who receive the Holy Spirit. Those who have the Holy Spirit have the mind of Christ. They therefore agree with God about what has been forgiven and what remains unforgiven, and therefore what they decide is what God has already decided. This knowledge is used mostly of the self rather than others, and is intimately linked to one's own repentance and resulting assurance of forgiveness.

[st. Worm]

This is a verse that modern day evangelicals, the same ones who hate to acknowledge true church authority, must tap dance around and twist. Not only does the verse point to the doctrine of confession and absolution through the church but also to church authority with regard to discipline of the unrepentant member.

While all sin was dealt with at the cross it pleases God to bring specific forgiveness through confession of those sins by true believers. For if we say we have no sin we make God out to be a liar. We are to confess these sins to one another. That is true not only for the worst unbeliever but also for the most pious Christian. Forgiveness of sin is applied through the means of grace, God's Word and His sacraments. Yet that is still somewhat different since those applications of forgiveness are completed without the synergisic activity of the sinner.

At any rate, the denial of the powers vested in His church by its founder, Jesus, continues to evolve even to the point that we now see many who have rejected the church altogether as they gather in their own little cocoons at home, free from the worry of real accountibility that a legitimate church provides. Unfortunately they have also removed themselves from another function of the true church, and that is the power to bind and loosen, to hear their confession and to absolve their sin.

sw

[pointer]

Not only does the verse point to the doctrine of confession and absolution through the church

Is that to be found in Scripture?

[st. Worm]

Not only does the verse point to the doctrine of confession and absolution through the church

Is that to be found in Scripture?

Very much so.

The Office of the Keys and its carrying out by true pastors is found in such passages as Ps. 32:5, Matt 18:17-18, Eph 4:11, Acts 20:28, 1 Cor 4:1 and 2 Cor 2:10.

I would highly recommend that anyone wanting to learn more from a Protestant perspective get Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation.

sw

[Floatingaxe]

This is my understanding on this passage:

John 20:21-23:

21He spoke to them again and said, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22Then he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven."

The point is, we are all to forgive. This is individual, not corporate church function. As we, as individuals have the Holy Spirit, and if we refuse to forgive our brothers, then we have unforgiveness on our hands. Jesus is touching upon the question of what do we do in that case? What do you do when you refuse to forgive and therefore have unforgiveness on your hands? It is best to forgive and go about your life, rather than have something so insidious hanging on you. This is all to do with personal holiness as one who has the Holy Spirit living and working in us. Bearing unforgiveness will quench the Holy spirit and hinder us.

Here is the paraphrase:

Then he took a deep breath and breathed into them. "Receive the Holy Spirit," he said. "If you forgive someone's sins, they're gone for good. If you don't forgive sins, what are you going to do with them?"

Blessings!

[st. Worm]

This is a verse that modern day evangelicals, the same ones who hate to acknowledge true church authority, must tap dance around and twist. Not only does the verse point to the doctrine of confession and absolution through the church but also to church authority with regard to discipline of the unrepentant member.

While all sin was dealt with at the cross it pleases God to bring specific forgiveness through confession of those sins by true believers. For if we say we have no sin we make God out to be a liar. We are to confess these sins to one another. That is true not only for the worst unbeliever but also for the most pious Christian. Forgiveness of sin is applied through the means of grace, God's Word and His sacraments. Yet that is still somewhat different since those applications of forgiveness are completed without the synergisic activity of the sinner.

At any rate, the denial of the powers vested in His church by its founder, Jesus, continues to evolve even to the point that we now see many who have rejected the church altogether as they gather in their own little cocoons at home, free from the worry of real accountibility that a legitimate church provides. Unfortunately they have also removed themselves from another function of the true church, and that is the power to bind and loosen, to hear their confession and to absolve their sin.

sw

Worm

[st. Worm]

St. Worm, I already stated that I do believe this verse is dealing with church authority, but that it has nothing to do with the ability of human vessels to condemn or acquit the guilty. Let's look at the verse again in John 20:23.

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

If this verse it to be taken in a vacuum, without rightly dividing it with other scriptures, it appears that Christ is not the one given authority to forgive sins, but the members of the church are. In addition, it would mean that Christ is not the one given the authority to retain sins, but the members of the church are. That means if someone in your church has a disagreement with you, and they choose to hold something against you, your soul is in jeopardy because you have received no forgiveness for it. If on the other hand, you have already received forgiveness for your sins as a result of the cross, then the verse doesn't really say what it appears to say and you are guilty of tap dancing around and twisting it to fit your doctrinal position.

By the way, the church is the people. If they wish to meet in their homes or in a building, it is still a gathering together of the church. The organized church in this day for the most part is leading people astray with false doctrine, and I don't blame anyone that feels the need to separate from it. If there is a good Bible believing church in one's area to go to, it is good to attend, but I don't believe God wants the sheep having to endure going into a place full of wolves each week to be destroyed. That is often what is happening in the many churches that have turned away from teaching the innerency of the Bible and instead teach a social gospel that is no gospel at all.

There are plenty of good churches and denominations. People should not be encouraged to leave the church just because theirs has fallen into apostacy. No good can come from removing yourself from Christ's church.

sw

[pointer]

Not only does the verse point to the doctrine of confession and absolution through the church

Is that to be found in Scripture?

The Office of the Keys and its carrying out by true pastors is found in such passages as Ps. 32:5

'Then I acknowledged my sin to you.'

'You' being a true pastor? Let's see:

'I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord"

[st. Worm]

Not only does the verse point to the doctrine of confession and absolution through the church

Is that to be found in Scripture?

The Office of the Keys and its carrying out by true pastors is found in such passages as Ps. 32:5

'Then I acknowledged my sin to you.'

'You' being a true pastor? Let's see:

'I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord"