Total Depravity

[irishcowboy]

the "Catholic" baptism of an infant, is a dedication called

Christening...... just as one would Christen a newly built ship prior to setting it out to sea... just as a Protestant would dedicate their child to the growth, training, and service of God....

the infant baptism is of no choice of the child..... what choice do they have and who to serve.... none,

it is more in line with the circumcission laws of the Jewish... which myself, my two brothers under went, and my sister was also christened.... that baptism is not as such....

being that the children are not able to make that choice, some tend to try and pray their dead children into heaven, which does not work either..... once a person has died, their destination has already been set.... but the infant, unable to make a conscience decision, and not able to distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad, heaven or hell..... God has them in His Glorious Hands......

mike

[endure4salvation]

Homebild, you offered not Scripture to back up your position.

Could you please supply some for us to consider? Thank you!

[godrulz]

Homebild: Is your position a covenantal theology (Reformed?) or Catholic?

[homebild]

Homebild: Is your position a covenantal theology (Reformed?) or Catholic?

Neither.

[homebild]

the "Catholic" baptism of an infant, is a dedication called

Christening...... just as one would Christen a newly built ship prior to setting it out to sea... just as a Protestant would dedicate their child to the growth, training, and service of God....

the infant baptism is of no choice of the child..... what choice do they have and who to serve.... none,

it is more in line with the circumcission laws of the Jewish... which myself, my two brothers under went, and my sister was also christened....  that baptism is not as such....

"Choice" was NEVER an issue concerning baptism for jews or the early Church and it was certainly never seen as optional, but MANDATORY and the ONLY means by which a Convert or Infant was accepted into fellowship in Israel or the Church.

Even Jewish scholarship confirms the absolutely held idea that Baptism itself washed away sin and was THE means by which a man was born anew of water or cleansed as an infant to be able to stand before the Shekinah glory of God and accepted inot the Congregation:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...&search=Baptism

[godrulz]

Hmmmm.....Baptismal regeneration?

I believe Believer's Baptism is Biblical. I support dedicating infants. Salvation is conditional on an informed choice to turn from selfishness to submission to the Lordship of Christ. The N.T. teaching supercedes O.T. types. Salvation is based on faith, not works (baptism). Baptism is an outward sign symbolizing dying to self and rising to new life. It is an important step of obedience. It is an ordinance like the Lord's Supper (Zwingli= emblems vs Con or Transubstantiation= literal change and merit=sacrament).

[endure4salvation]

Salvation is based on faith, not works (baptism).

How can you call baptism a work?

Can one do it to himself or for himself?

Baptism is a commandment of Jesus AFTER the resurrection, and only through obedience are we to enter heaven?

And if one has a REAL saving faith, it will include works. Does this mean that works earn salvation? No, it just means what Paul said about works:

Titus 2:11-14

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works.

According to Paul, who knew vastly more about grace then all of us, if someone is under God's grace, they will be zealous for good works while denying ungodliness while striving to live a godly life.

I guess Paul is guilty of preaching a works salvation.

[irishcowboy]

Baptism has nothing to do with the salvation of a person,

the only thing that offers salvation, is Jesus....

our sins are washed away under the Blood of the Lamb,

not water.......

the water baptism is an out ward sign of being obedient unto the Lord, is an act of wittness.....

if a person accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, and dies prior to baptism, that will hinder them not with their salvation....

baptism is a personal choice, a personal experience, and a public confession that they have taken Jesus as their Lord and Savior.....

a person can get " baptised" ten times a day, for 80 years, and not having accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, all they have accomplished is getting wet and turning the dirt on the flesh into mud.....

I agree, a person should, as a sign of obedience to the Lord, be baptised soon after they have accepted the Lord...

An infant that dies, is in the hands of the Lord......

baptism, just as accepting the Lord Jesus, as our Savior is a personal choice, we either accept Jesus, or we deny Jesus as Lord..... an infant does not have that choice, can not make the choice them selves..... and sprinkeling them in water, or dunking them will not get them into heaven, only the Grace of God can do that...

mike

[endure4salvation]

baptism, just as accepting the Lord Jesus, as our Savior is a personal choice, we either accept Jesus, or we deny Jesus as Lord..... an infant does not have that choice, can not make the choice them selves..... and sprinkeling them in water, or dunking them will not get them into heaven, only the Grace of God can do that...

So what you are saying is that we can deliberatly disobey commandments of God and still make it to heaven?

What ever happened to obedience to God's commands? What does the Bible say?

Matthew 28:19,20

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

As you can see, Jesus commanded people to be baptized, and what does Jesus say about obedience?

John 15:10

If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love.

What did Jesus' best friend have to say about obedience?

1 John 2:3,4

We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.

It seems pretty clear to me--both Jesus and John preached a works salvation.

[godrulz]

ENDURE:

Are you saying you cannot be saved without baptism?

cf. thief on the cross; person dying in a plane crash (repent before crash).

Baptism is not a work; the false teaching of baptismal regeneration makes it a work salvation.