Total Depravity

[sagz4Christ]

Actually, I believe in obedience to the commands of our Lord Jesus, and He said that we need to, so why treat it like it is foreign to the Scriptures?

I will say over and over that we are required to obey Jesus in order to enter heaven...just like he and all His apostles said.

That is simple, huh?

Tell you what, Jake.....

You live by obidience, I will live by faith and love.

We can talk more when we see each other in glory.....

I don't know if you saw my last post. I don't even know if you cared too much for it. It wouldn't bother me either way.

My question for you is this...something I have never been able to answer by way of your train of thought.

If we happen to sin....if we happen to disobey God, what happens? Are we allowed back in? If one sin will cut off salvation for us, and you say we are allowed back in through asking forgiveness, then what about Hebrews 6? It states that (whoever it is refering to) it is impossible to bring him back to repentence.

If you say that we only get one shot, then none of us are going to heaven. 1 John says if any man says he is without sin, he is a lier (sp). If sin keeps us from heaven, ..........????????????????????

I hope you see where I am coming from.

My last post said that obedience will flow naturally out of our love for God.

I believe the greatest command given men was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, all your strength. And the second was to love your neighbor as yourself.

Is not the whole of the Law and the Prophets summed up in these two verses?

By the way, love is not an emotion that can change like the breeze. Love is not a verb. Love is a noun. Love is a mental, physical and total commitment to it's benefactor. God does not love us with an emotion. He is committed to loving us unconditionally. It is the sriving of the Christian to learn to love Him back in the same mannor. We need to love as a noun...a commitment. We need to love with every thing we have.

God doesn't want robots.....He also doesn't want forced obedience. He wants....desires us to be obedient out of LOVE....not fear. We are to have a healthy fear of God because of His awsome power. We fear God out of reverence to the fact that He can divide soul and spirit. Not that He is holding it over our heads, mind you...But He has the power to do that.

Dang....I lost my train of thought. But I did want to comment on your last few posts between you and godrulz.

I admire and appreciate you shucking all lables of denomination and practices of worship. I do not consider myself to be anything other than Christian. I am not Baptist, Methodist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, Armenian (go figure!) or Calvanist.

I walk by faith...not by sight. I am a Christian...a child of the living God. There are those that would consider me conservative....even hyper-conservative, but this doesn't bother me. I live by the Biblical standards set forth in Scripture.

But I am worried, Jake, that in your quest to dodge all man-made labels of religion and doctrines of belief, you may have inadvertantly ctummbled upon yet another *denomination*...if you don't mind me using the only word I can think of right now. I think you called it the restoration movement. Admittedly, I haven't read through the links you gave, or done a search on the net for this movement, but my heart is strained slightly at the thought of this being yet another denomination...(I am sorry for using this word, I can't think of a better one that sounds reasonable and not cultish).

I know you are not one to be lead haphazardly into things like this so I know you prayed and researched it for a long time, but dear brother, the evil one is soo deceptive....he can be soo crafty...I just worry for you is all....

And I may not have anything to worry about seeing as I didn't read the links provided, I just had to get that off my chest.

I am only concerned.

~your brother in Christ

[endure4salvation]

Tell you what, Jake.....

You live by obidience, I will live by faith and love.

We can talk more when we see each other in glory.....

Your faith is an obedient faith, right? Well, there are no problems here!

I don't know if you saw my last post.  I don't even know if you cared too much for it.  It wouldn't bother me either way.

What post are you talking about? I would be more then happy to go and look at it!

My question for you is this...something I have never been able to answer by way of your train of thought.

If we happen to sin....if we happen to disobey God, what happens?  Are we allowed back in?  If one sin will cut off salvation for us, and you say we are allowed back in through asking forgiveness, then what about Hebrews 6?  It states that (whoever it is refering to) it is impossible to bring him back to repentence.

Sagz, if you are REALLY willing to search out the answer for this, I will be more then happy to show you that our English translations say something VERY different from each other. Some (like the KJV) include the word 'if' and say "If they fall away" instead of "And having fallen away" Doesn't that totally change the context?

Now if you look at it closely, the NIV renders part as such:

...to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again...

You will notice in the above text that the falling away is a present tense falling away and they are still in such sins.

There is absolutely no reason why they can't reclaim their previous position in the kingdom once they STOP their falling away. It is impossible to be in outright sin and be in a relationship with God.

If you really look at this text without doctrinal pre-supposition glasses on, it is understandable. If you start at the end result that OSAS is true, then it makes for some interesting mind-dancing with texts like this.

If you say that we only get one shot, then none of us are going to heaven.  1 John says if any man says he is without sin, he is a lier (sp).  If sin keeps us from heaven, ..........????????????????????

I hope you see where I am coming from.

Yes, you are setting up a strawman argument (which you referenced in another thread) because you do not understand my position and why I believe it. If you remember, I used to strongly believe what you currently believe. But after doing so much mind-aerobics to distort the clear teaching of the Bible (and the historical position for 1,500 years of Church history), I had to alter my belief system. I want to have the fullness of the truth and with my former closed mind, it was impossible. So I let the Bible teach me, and not the doctrines of man.

My last post said that obedience will flow naturally out of our love for God.

AMEN SAGZ!!!!!!! We couldn't agree more! I do thinks for my wife because I love her, not because I am scared that she will leave me.

I believe the greatest command given men was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, all your strength.  And the second was to love your neighbor as yourself.

Is not the whole of the Law and the Prophets summed up in these two verses?

Yes, you are correct. That is the clear teaching of the Bible, and a direct command of Jesus Christ.

God doesn't want robots.....He also doesn't want forced obedience.  He wants....desires us to be obedient out of LOVE....not fear.  We are to have a healthy fear of God because of His awsome power.  We fear God out of reverence to the fact that He can divide soul and spirit.  Not that He is holding it over our heads, mind you...But He has the power to do that.

Again, I don't do anything for God because I am scared that I am going to be cut of and thrown into hell. I do it because I love Jesus for what He has done for me and because He loves me.

Here are a few verses that deal with the fear of God:

Philippians 2:12

...my dear friends, as you have always obeyed...continue to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (NIV)

Hebrews 12:28-29

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."

Dang....I lost my train of thought.  But I did want to comment on your last few posts between you and godrulz.

Dang is right! I hate it when that happens!!!!

I admire and appreciate you shucking all lables of denomination and practices of worship.  I do not consider myself to be anything other than Christian.  I am not Baptist, Methodist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, Armenian (go figure!) or Calvanist.

Well, thank you for the kind word, friend! I have spent the last 3 years in a Baptist Church where they teach all the things you believe. The first was about 13,000 members strong and is building a $55 Million building right now. fbcw.org is the website if you care to look at it. By the way....there is a picture of me on there:

Here is the link and below I will try to put the pictures I am in. We were on a mission trip in Portugal planting a new church (yes a Baptist church!!! he he he!).

If you care, I am in the middle of the first picture with the hooded sweatshirt on and in the bottom, I am in the back on the far left next to the pretty black lady.

I walk by faith...not by sight.  I am a Christian...a child of the living God.  There are those that would consider me conservative....even hyper-conservative, but this doesn't bother me.  I live by the Biblical standards set forth in Scripture.

I would say that we are birds of the same feather!

But I am worried, Jake, that in your quest to dodge all man-made labels of religion and doctrines of belief, you may have inadvertantly ctummbled upon yet another *denomination*...if you don't mind me using the only word I can think of right now.  I think you called it the restoration movement.  Admittedly, I haven't read through the links you gave, or done a search on the net for this movement, but my heart is strained slightly at the thought of this being yet another denomination...(I am sorry for using this word, I can't think of a better one that sounds reasonable and not cultish).

I can see why you would think that, but the idea was that six people started the same idea around the same time totally unaware of each other. You can search out anything you want to on it, we basically believe the same things as any other church in the basic Christian doctrines. No offense taken here, friend!

I know you are not one to be lead haphazardly into things like this so I know you prayed and researched it for a long time, but dear brother, the evil one is soo deceptive....he can be soo crafty...I just worry for you is all....

I appreciate your brotherly concern, but (I ask this only joking with you) if I am saved, am I not unconditionally eternally secure? So it doesn't matter if I become a Satanist, I will still go to heaven! LOL!!! Yup, just playing around!

And I may not have anything to worry about seeing as I didn't read the links provided, I just had to get that off my chest.

I am only concerned.

~your brother in Christ

Tee hee hee! I love you, brother!

Hey, didn't we kind of get ***off topic*** here? LOL!!!

[ColleenLovesMischief]

I still have to ask how could an aborted baby be sent to hell? It never even lived on the earth unhooked from it's mother.

[Anonymous]

I still have to ask how could an aborted baby be sent to hell? It never even lived on the earth unhooked from it's mother.

Babies whether aborted/stillborn are innocent of sin....

AP

[ColleenLovesMischief]

For those of you who believe that stillborn and aborted and sids babies go to hell can you show me Biblical proof?

[endure4salvation]

For those of you who believe that stillborn and aborted and sids babies go to hell can you show me Biblical proof?

No, they can't, GodsLove26....it isn't there.

Like trying to find someone that is in total rebellion and sin who is described as currently saved....you won't find it because it isn't there!!!

[ColleenLovesMischief]

That is exactly what I thought.

[Guest shadow2b]

--. I just preach holiness and endurance.

E4--could you "describe" or "define" {HOLINESS}----for me please??????--

thank you-----------Gary--

[Guest shadow2b]

--For those of you who believe that stillborn and aborted and sids babies go to hell can you show me Biblical proof?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING----RIGHT????? what nin-com-poop--believes this????seriously?????

---sheeeessssssshhhhhh--------Gary--

[Guest dove2]

There really are a lot of people that believe that these babies don't go to heaven. I have to agree they are ignorant people to believe such a thing about these innocent babies.