Ask a Catholic

[Pax]

Christ is the head and His body is the Church. They are connected and can't be seperated so when you leave the body you leave the head (Christ).

Yes...but not the Roman Catholic Church. That is where we differ Pax and you know that. I thought this wasn't going to be a debate.

It's not a debate, I respect your views.

When you respond like you did to Floatingaxe, you spark debate. The original intent of this thread is to clarify the doctrinal views of the Roman Catholic Church (refer to the original post). It should be a simple question & answer format. No explanation needed and definitely no more "cut & paste" extracts from non-Biblical sources. Yes, you have been and will be challenged by the brethren but once you have clarified your position and belief, that's all that is needed.

We have allowed this thread to go on this long out of respect for Fiosh and her desire to share her viewpoint. Regardless, please do not forget that this is NOT a Catholic Apologetics forum but a Christian Apologetics forum. It is intended to defend Jesus Christ, not an institution.

Brother, please respect not just our views but our ministry as well.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

Fiosh, myself, and Kansasdad have spent 28 pages of post trying not to engage in an argument. I don't really understand this post. I don't want to spark a debate, but rather keep answering questions about the Catholic Church. I also haven't ever cut and paste one item on this site, heck I don't even know how to do that. I did copy out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church of which I sited my source. Fiosh has done this numerous times throughout this thread. I'm also glad the Worthy Boards has allowed Fiosh to start this thread and let it continue. It is good for people to see that Catholics and Protestants can have a civil conversation without it turning into a name calling argument. And like Fiosh stated in her opening post, if your going to let an Atheist spending 100 plus pages telling all of you what he believes than what is wrong with a Catholic doing the same thing?

[CellShade]

i'm not game. i have no need to ask for clarification on catholic beliefs. this tells me all i need to know:

A) catholics believe that mary was sinless.

B) catholics believe that mary never had sex with her husband.

if B is true, then it makes A a lie. because God commands a wife to be intimate with her husband. so if she never had sex and was the perpetual virgin, she was sinning against God, AND against her husband.

not that it matters because scripture is clear that A is false anyway.

C) catholics do not believe that the Bible is complete enough to stand on its own merit.

D) despite the denials from every catholic who has ever come on this board, they pray to mary and to the saints. they worship mary as a diety. it is idolatry.

i know that i'll get a flood of denials from all the catholics here, so i'm not going to stay in this thread. i'm just going to post evidence of what i just said and leave it at that.

from the catholic prayers:

'filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing well YOUR full power'. 'i entrust myself completely to YOU.' 'Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved' (o virgin imacculate, mother of God and my mother) (emphasis mine)

'and in THY intercession is all my hope', 'Thou, when called upon, dost immediately assist; nay, more, thou dost anticipate our prayers by thy favors; thou consolest us in our afflictions; thou dissipatest the storms by which we are tossed about; thou overcomest all enemies;', 'My Mother, what will become of me? If thou dost not help me,' 'My Lady, forgive my temerity; come thyself to comfort me with thy presence in that last struggle. This favor thou hast granted to many, grant it also to me.', 'For thy eternal glory, let it be said that thou hast snatched a wretched creature from hell, to which he was already condemned, and that thou hast led him to thy kingdom. Oh, yes, sweet Mother, I hope to have the consolation of remaining always at thy feet in heaven, thanking and blessing and loving thee eternally.' (O my most sweet Mother, how shall I die, poor sinner that I am?)

'SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!' (Aspirations to Mary)

'We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls;' (Consecrations to Mary)

'The price of salvation is offered to you. We shall be set free at once if you consent. ' (Mary's consent)

'Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.' (Hail Holy Mary)

'We look to you, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.' (Prayer to Our Lady, Assumed into Heaven)

'We fly to your protection, most holy Mother of God; please listen to our petitions and needs, and deliver us from all dangers, ever glorious and blessed Virgin Mary.' (To our Blessed Mother)

this is but a few snippets from the idolatrous catholic prayer book. it spits in the face of our Heavenly Father.

Agrees.

Also, I find it kind of funny(or sad), when,why is it that the first prayer that comes out of your mouth, you mention a saint and not God?

Now I won't say that this is a doctrine that is teached by catholics, but, it's the first thing that happens...

There is just one Mediator between God and Man, and that Mediator is Jesus Christ, not the saints that the RCC so much worships.

Ok now to the questions.

Where in The Bible did it say that Mary was Sinless?I want to know, I have looked, but have never found that...

Also, where in The Bible does it mention the pope?To add to this, what is the pope exactly to you?

I will let Fiosh tackle the Mary question, but I will try answer your question about the Pope. Please refer to Mathew 16: 18-19. This is the biblical reference that the Catholic Church states to show that Jesus Christ intended there to ba a Human figure to give guidance when He is gone. You will notice in the verses that Christ is telling Peter (a mortal man) that "you are Peter , and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Christ is clearly telling Peter that he will be the guiding figure of the one Church after He leaves.

The Catholic Church believes in apostoloc succession and the See of Peter continues to this day with Pope Benedict XVI being the 275 Pope to guide the Church.

The role of the Pope is to give guidance to the Church established by Christ. You also won't find the word Pope in the Bible, just like you won't find the word Trinity in the Bible. I believe Pope means papa or father.

Notice how He commanded it to Peter, not any other man in earth.

I can't see how you are trying to make a point out of this verse.

In my opinion, the pope is not anything more than any other mortal man, sorry to say this but, he is a sinner, caught in bad ways, I don't know if he honestly believes this, or he knows it's a lie and just wants to play along with it(I can say other things, but you so the thread doesn't become a hard debate)

The Catholic Church does not worship any of the photos or statues, but use them as a tool to bring them closer to God.

Do you see God when you look at that image of Christ?

When I look at an image of Christ I see an artist's depiction of what he/she imagines Christ looks like.

And this "artist's depiction" is what brings you closer to God?

man, bro I love ya but you are missing the point. Catholics don't worship idols but some feel inspired when they see Jesus nailed to the cross, for some it gives them hope when they feel they are missing something, for others these things carry different meanings that may keep them coming back to church and living in faith. The enviornment also gives a sense of peace and holiness for some. Each individual knows God and God knows their hearts. The important thing is that they go to get inspiration and peace regardless of all the "schtuff". I look at is Holy Art work, beautiful, serene and intense detail.

Well, they may feel inspired, but it's not Biblical, they should feel inspired seing the Jesus resurected from the death, not when He was dying.

So, are you saying that it's ok to have statues of angels but not images of Jesus? Could you give us your list of acceptable images and unacceptable images? Where do movies fall on your scale; for ex. "The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, The Passion of the Christ.

Thanks,

Fiosh

Don't answer my questions with questions.

Is it ok?....no. The bible speaks out against making these things. I don't know how many times I've asked you to show me where in the bible we are given permission to make images of God. Why can you not do that? You say you adhere to scripture but are unable to show me the verse or verses that teach you to do these things.

As far as movies...I don't see them as anything holy or sacred. They are the visual interpretation of what's going on inside the director's head.

So, what you are saying is that pictures depicting Jesus are ok, as long as they are not in a Catholic Church or in a Catholic home????

That's not at all what I'm saying. And it's not only catholics who are guilty of this.

Any image of God and all that pertain to Him...no matter where it is or who has it or what it's purpose is...is wrong.

Ok, so you don't go to movies of a spiritual nature because it is wrong. I accept that is your belief and I respect you for sticking to it. But you are of a different opinion than most Christians.

Are you saying you did or did not see The Passion of the Christ???

Hmm, I am also kind of offended to some way when I also see this type of things, actors that are constantly doing bad things, portraying God.

No Man is worth enought to act as God in a movie, we don't even know how Jesus looked like.

Btw I saw The Passion, I do not agree with it, for other reasons too.

Back to topic.

I still need a good answer to who the pope is to you.And how does the Bible support him in anyway?

And my Mary question wasn't answered.

[Guest man]

But that's the last time He allows it, right? Ummm......come with me to Numbers 21

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Wow! God used a graven image to save people from death. Now I'm confused. What was He trying to say?

Oh, let's check out John 3:14, maybe that will clear this up.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

What? The serpent is a type of Christ? Isn't that sorta like a graven image that represents Christ. And yet God used it as an instrument of healing? Makes my head spin.

In His Love,

Fiosh

PS. I didn't edit this yet.

You failed to mention that over in 2 kings 18:4 that very same image was destroyed.

Why was it destroyed?

The children of Israel started to worship it. They burned incense to it and gave it a name.

In Isaiah 46:5 God asks "To whom will you liken Me...that we should be alike?

Isaiah 44:13 talks about making a wooden image of a man...in verse 19 God calls it an abomination.

How are the images we have today any better then the ones they had back then?

Pax

I would like your opinion on the above...if you don't mind.

Thanks.

[WayneB]

Christ is the head and His body is the Church. They are connected and can't be seperated so when you leave the body you leave the head (Christ).

Yes...but not the Roman Catholic Church. That is where we differ Pax and you know that. I thought this wasn't going to be a debate.

It's not a debate, I respect your views.

When you respond like you did to Floatingaxe, you spark debate. The original intent of this thread is to clarify the doctrinal views of the Roman Catholic Church (refer to the original post). It should be a simple question & answer format. No explanation needed and definitely no more "cut & paste" extracts from non-Biblical sources. Yes, you have been and will be challenged by the brethren but once you have clarified your position and belief, that's all that is needed.

We have allowed this thread to go on this long out of respect for Fiosh and her desire to share her viewpoint. Regardless, please do not forget that this is NOT a Catholic Apologetics forum but a Christian Apologetics forum. It is intended to defend Jesus Christ, not an institution.

Brother, please respect not just our views but our ministry as well.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

Fiosh, myself, and Kansasdad have spent 28 pages of post trying not to engage in an argument. I don't really understand this post. I don't want to spark a debate, but rather keep answering questions about the Catholic Church. I also haven't ever cut and paste one item on this site, heck I don't even know how to do that. I did copy out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church of which I sited my source. Fiosh has done this numerous times throughout this thread. I'm also glad the Worthy Boards has allowed Fiosh to start this thread and let it continue. It is good for people to see that Catholics and Protestants can have a civil conversation without it turning into a name calling argument. And like Fiosh stated in her opening post, if your going to let an Atheist spending 100 plus pages telling all of you what he believes than what is wrong with a Catholic doing the same thing?

So what is this if it is not to spark a debate? Our allowing this thread has nothing to do with a non-believer being allowed to post in the OUTER COURT. Once again, I remind you..this is NOT a Catholic Apologetics forum. It is a Christian Apologetics Forum. It is here to defend Jesus Christ; not the Roman Catholic Church or any other church. Furthermore, no more sources other than the Bible regardless of what we have missed. I thought EricH made that clear brother.

Now, the matter is ended. I remind you. Questions & Answers only.

[Pax]

i'm not game. i have no need to ask for clarification on catholic beliefs. this tells me all i need to know:

A) catholics believe that mary was sinless.

B) catholics believe that mary never had sex with her husband.

if B is true, then it makes A a lie. because God commands a wife to be intimate with her husband. so if she never had sex and was the perpetual virgin, she was sinning against God, AND against her husband.

not that it matters because scripture is clear that A is false anyway.

C) catholics do not believe that the Bible is complete enough to stand on its own merit.

D) despite the denials from every catholic who has ever come on this board, they pray to mary and to the saints. they worship mary as a diety. it is idolatry.

i know that i'll get a flood of denials from all the catholics here, so i'm not going to stay in this thread. i'm just going to post evidence of what i just said and leave it at that.

from the catholic prayers:

'filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing well YOUR full power'. 'i entrust myself completely to YOU.' 'Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved' (o virgin imacculate, mother of God and my mother) (emphasis mine)

'and in THY intercession is all my hope', 'Thou, when called upon, dost immediately assist; nay, more, thou dost anticipate our prayers by thy favors; thou consolest us in our afflictions; thou dissipatest the storms by which we are tossed about; thou overcomest all enemies;', 'My Mother, what will become of me? If thou dost not help me,' 'My Lady, forgive my temerity; come thyself to comfort me with thy presence in that last struggle. This favor thou hast granted to many, grant it also to me.', 'For thy eternal glory, let it be said that thou hast snatched a wretched creature from hell, to which he was already condemned, and that thou hast led him to thy kingdom. Oh, yes, sweet Mother, I hope to have the consolation of remaining always at thy feet in heaven, thanking and blessing and loving thee eternally.' (O my most sweet Mother, how shall I die, poor sinner that I am?)

'SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!' (Aspirations to Mary)

'We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls;' (Consecrations to Mary)

'The price of salvation is offered to you. We shall be set free at once if you consent. ' (Mary's consent)

'Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.' (Hail Holy Mary)

'We look to you, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.' (Prayer to Our Lady, Assumed into Heaven)

'We fly to your protection, most holy Mother of God; please listen to our petitions and needs, and deliver us from all dangers, ever glorious and blessed Virgin Mary.' (To our Blessed Mother)

this is but a few snippets from the idolatrous catholic prayer book. it spits in the face of our Heavenly Father.

Agrees.

Also, I find it kind of funny(or sad), when,why is it that the first prayer that comes out of your mouth, you mention a saint and not God?

Now I won't say that this is a doctrine that is teached by catholics, but, it's the first thing that happens...

There is just one Mediator between God and Man, and that Mediator is Jesus Christ, not the saints that the RCC so much worships.

Ok now to the questions.

Where in The Bible did it say that Mary was Sinless?I want to know, I have looked, but have never found that...

Also, where in The Bible does it mention the pope?To add to this, what is the pope exactly to you?

I will let Fiosh tackle the Mary question, but I will try answer your question about the Pope. Please refer to Mathew 16: 18-19. This is the biblical reference that the Catholic Church states to show that Jesus Christ intended there to ba a Human figure to give guidance when He is gone. You will notice in the verses that Christ is telling Peter (a mortal man) that "you are Peter , and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Christ is clearly telling Peter that he will be the guiding figure of the one Church after He leaves.

The Catholic Church believes in apostoloc succession and the See of Peter continues to this day with Pope Benedict XVI being the 275 Pope to guide the Church.

The role of the Pope is to give guidance to the Church established by Christ. You also won't find the word Pope in the Bible, just like you won't find the word Trinity in the Bible. I believe Pope means papa or father.

Notice how He commanded it to Peter, not any other man in earth.

I can't see how you are trying to make a point out of this verse.

In my opinion, the pope is not anything more than any other mortal man, sorry to say this but, he is a sinner, caught in bad ways, I don't know if he honestly believes this, or he knows it's a lie and just wants to play along with it(I can say other things, but you so the thread doesn't become a hard debate)

The Catholic Church does not worship any of the photos or statues, but use them as a tool to bring them closer to God.

Do you see God when you look at that image of Christ?

When I look at an image of Christ I see an artist's depiction of what he/she imagines Christ looks like.

And this "artist's depiction" is what brings you closer to God?

man, bro I love ya but you are missing the point. Catholics don't worship idols but some feel inspired when they see Jesus nailed to the cross, for some it gives them hope when they feel they are missing something, for others these things carry different meanings that may keep them coming back to church and living in faith. The enviornment also gives a sense of peace and holiness for some. Each individual knows God and God knows their hearts. The important thing is that they go to get inspiration and peace regardless of all the "schtuff". I look at is Holy Art work, beautiful, serene and intense detail.

Well, they may feel inspired, but it's not Biblical, they should feel inspired seing the Jesus resurected from the death, not when He was dying.

So, are you saying that it's ok to have statues of angels but not images of Jesus? Could you give us your list of acceptable images and unacceptable images? Where do movies fall on your scale; for ex. "The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, The Passion of the Christ.

Thanks,

Fiosh

Don't answer my questions with questions.

Is it ok?....no. The bible speaks out against making these things. I don't know how many times I've asked you to show me where in the bible we are given permission to make images of God. Why can you not do that? You say you adhere to scripture but are unable to show me the verse or verses that teach you to do these things.

As far as movies...I don't see them as anything holy or sacred. They are the visual interpretation of what's going on inside the director's head.

So, what you are saying is that pictures depicting Jesus are ok, as long as they are not in a Catholic Church or in a Catholic home????

That's not at all what I'm saying. And it's not only catholics who are guilty of this.

Any image of God and all that pertain to Him...no matter where it is or who has it or what it's purpose is...is wrong.

Ok, so you don't go to movies of a spiritual nature because it is wrong. I accept that is your belief and I respect you for sticking to it. But you are of a different opinion than most Christians.

Are you saying you did or did not see The Passion of the Christ???

Hmm, I am also kind of offended to some way when I also see this type of things, actors that are constantly doing bad things, portraying God.

No Man is worth enought to act as God in a movie, we don't even know how Jesus looked like.

Btw I saw The Passion, I do not agree with it, for other reasons too.

Back to topic.

I still need a good answer to who the pope is to you.And how does the Bible support him in anyway?

And my Mary question wasn't answered.

I'm not sure what Mary question you are talking about and will let Fiosh handle it. If you read Mathew 16:16-19 you will see where the Catholic Church gets it's Pope. Peter is given the keys to the kingdom of heaven from Jesus. The Catholic Church teaches in apostolic succession, which means the See the Peter is passed on to give guidance to the Church. Pope Benedict XVI is the 275th Pope to lead the Church.

[Fiosh]

Hi Fiosh.

As a matter of interest if you were excommunicated from the RC church for any reason, would you consider yourself as still having any future left with God?

If I may, I will give you a quick answer to this. Fiosh feel free to add anything if you see fit. Excommuncation is a Church penalty which excludes a notorious sinner or someone grossly disobedient from the communion of the fiathful. It doesn't mean the person ceases to be a Christian. Its purpose is to warn the individual that he risks losing his soul unless he repents.

Another purpose is to bring the wayward back to the practice of the faith and to obedience. The bishop of my diocese had a list or organizations that if you were a Catholic and a member of any of these organizations you were excommunicated. The purpose wasn't to ban all these people to hell, but rather try to give them a firm warning and bring them back to the faith.

Sorry Pax. A simple question demands a simple answer and your post doesn't give one. We all know what excommunication is supposed to be for. My question was

"As a matter of interest if you were excommunicated from the RC church for any reason, would you consider yourself as still having any future left with God?"

Why Can't you just say yes or no?

Hey Rebmilc!

Are you saying you want only a yes or no answer???

If so, then ------------------ Yes.

[Fiosh]

Is everyone ready for the big one, explain how purgatory is scriptural?

Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14

[WayneB]

Greetings brothers and sisters in Christ,

My intent with this thread is NOT to proselytize or convert.

Simply put, I wish to offer accurate information concerning the teaching of the RCC in order to promote understanding.

Many times here at WB I've seen gross misrepresentations of what I supposedly believe as a Catholic Christian.

I certainly can understand that many of you disagree with the RCC, and I respect your opinion. But I would at least like to offer you the opportunity to disagree with the actual doctrines of the RCC and not what others claim them to be.

All resident Catholics are invited to respond to the questions. But, I would ask several things:

1. NO personal OPINIONS. Respond with verifiable info from the Catechism, Vatican II docs, Early Church Fathers and other approved RCC sources.

2. NO apologetics. I refuse to argue "right or wrong" on this thread. If anyone desires to discuss any particular doctrine, start a new thread and I'll gladly meet you there.

3. NO bashing from either side. Can we keep it friendly?

I will ask the mods to delete any post from either "camp", including my own, that is not presented in a Christian manner.

I have no ulterior motive. Jesus prayed that we all be one. It truly saddens me that we are often so far apart. Yet, I will not compromise what I believe; and I don't expect you do compromise your beliefs. But maybe we can come to at least recognize that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, trying to follow and serve Him with sincere hearts.

If the mods won't allow this discussion, I'll respect that. I only ask that they prayerfully consider it, as I have done.

So..............

Go ahead, ask any question you like about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Peace,

Fiosh

I bumped this to remind everyone the purpose of the thread as stated by the original poster, Fiosh.

We have allowed this thread ONLY because we respect Fiosh and accept her witness as a follower of Jesus Christ. Obviously, as a ministry, we do not support the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church but we (at least I) thought this could be a good exercise for all of us, NOT to seek unity but rather to seek understanding.

Like I mentioned to PAX in a previous post...the board rules & standards apply to this thread. Please, no links or cut & pastes (includes word for word transcription) of any source other than Holy Scripture. For this discussion, that should be enough since we do have the Word of God in common, as our foundation. Reference to another source is fine but not a word for word transcription.

Honestly, our desire is to defend Jesus Christ, which is why we allow an Atheist to have their very own thread. This is not the same and our allowing this discussion has nothing to do with it.

Like I mentioned, simple questions and answers. That will work if the intent is to clarify and inform and NOT defend the RCC. Remember, I say again, the purpose of this forum is to defend Jesus Christ, not a church institution.

(thanks for your keen eyes Jade & Fiosh )

Edited October 4, 2006 by Wayne B.

[WayneB]

Okay, now that we have that out of the way...

My questions.

What does it mean to you when you consider "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" the moment Jesus yielded His spirit? [Matthew 27:51]

In the same context, the writer of Hebrews specifically mentioned a new High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Who is this? [Hebrews 7] Why wasn't Peter mentioned?

Lastly, and still in the same context, why did Jesus never mention Peter as a source of knowledge and remembrance? He only mentioned the Holy Spirit when He spoke to His disciples and recorded for all believers. Why did he not mention Peter if Peter was the 1st of a long line of high priests?

EDIT:

One more question (all in context to the original)... What role does Paul, Timothy, the Ethiopean Eunuch, James, et.al. serve? Do they all come under Peter's authority? If so, what Scriptural reference reflects this?

I am sure that you folks see my real point here. Essentially I am asking you to clearly establish Peter's authority as the first leader of the Church and in context to the whole and not just one Scripture taken out of context.

[Guest man]

I don't know how to word this without sounding rude, but why can I not get a straight answer from you guys?

I have asked for scripture references a number of times and got nothing. You guys either talk around it or ignore it completely. Does your church not use the Word of God in their teaching's?

To me...when someone ignores or talks around an issue, that tells me that you are unsure of yourself and the statements you've made.

Like I said...I don't wish to be rude...but if you can't backup your belief's ( with scripture ) and the teaching's of your church...maybe you shouldn't say anything.