Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

Do you know my friend Charlie?

Secondly you have come here making broad sweeping generalizations based upon Your experience. However you will find that most of us Christians did not come to Faith based upon our experience. Not even our circumstance. Although most times our circumstance in coming to Faith is not concurrently good.

We came to faith with a Revelation. A Revelation of the Beauty and Grace of our Savior. It trumped our experience in the flesh and overwhelmed our circumstance.

I hear you talking alot about your experience as a Christain. However what I don't hear you talking about was the Revelation that first brought you to Faith. Your revelation of yourself is your experience. How sad to find out what all nonbelieving men have come to find out over the ages. That they are but alone. Seperated from God. You admitted as much.

Know why you feel that way though?

It's the difference between yourself and those here who are speaking the Truth in Love to you. They have had a Revelation of who they are in the sight of a Holy, Just, and Righteous God and He has forgiven them. This leaves them with an unshakeable Faith. The man who has little to be thankful for has even less to be grateful for.

I will take the Revelation of my Lord over your experience anyday.

It just doesn't matter in what circumstance I find myself, I know that God is Good.

I'm praying that Revelation trumps experience for you too.

Peace,

Dave

[Floatingaxe]

Funny, khalou...Christians have a wonderful, healthy curiosity about things too! The difference is, we know who to ask! Someone who will give us an answer--a true one!

From your posts, I can see that many, many Christians I've encountered would see you as a prime candidate for losing your faith. You fight against that of which you have no idea because you have decided that the Bible tells you that they are false. Many, many Christians have looked at the evidence of things and have found a way to reinterpret the Bible with those things in mind because you can't ignore an elephant in your living room forever. Things tend to pile up.

But, more importantly, God has never said many of the things you think He said. I have many Christian friends that I consider dear, and envy them because of their faith. (breaking a commandment, but what are ya gonna do? ) And I would never try to pry a person from their faith. But the Christians of whom I speak actually have explanations (for example) for the various periods of life on the earth (the Triassic, the Jurassic, and so on) because they have read the evidence and realize that God has created this evidence along with the earth. Those people won't lose their faith if that evidence ever becomes known by laypersons in America.

But I worry about you. Should the overwhelming evidence of the early Christian Church ever reach your intellectual perusal, I'm sure you'll protect yourself by disagreeing outright and shutting it out. But what if it becomes impossible to do so? My Christian friends don't think it's particularly healthy to their faith to just ignore what human experts come up with, and realize something that I'm going to share with you whether you see it as a favor or not- and that is that it doesn't matter what is discovered that might go against your understanding about God and the universe. Christianity cannot be disproven, and that is the bottom line. But to simply disagree because you believe that's what God wants instead of looking is doing you no favors.

Galileo (THAT OLD STORY! ) wasn't wrong, and after a time, everybody knew it. The church wasn't wrong about Christianity, but had developed a non-Christlike determination to fight against what man's wisdom might uncover. How many Christians, upon seeing that the church was ultimately wrong may have lost their faith as a result? I certainly don't know.

But it seems to be self evident that God wouldn't have wanted the church to set itself up to be so very wrong that it might hurt the faith of someone.

k

You don't know to whom you are talking. I have studied anthropology in university. It is still a futile endeavour, especially for a believer.

The Church is not wrong. You are.

Don't worry about me. I am not in any danger of losing my faith as I have a rock solid faith in the living God. He knows me and calls me by name. I have known Jesus Christ for 44 years and He is very real. Our relationship becomes richer with each passing year.

And to Dave: Excellent! Yes it is a revelation of Jesus Christ that gives birth to faith! Amen! He is an awesome God!

[secondeve]

Sexual freedom, if that person is gay: to love who they want without judgement. The freedom to believe that they, and not God, are in control of their own destiny. The freedom to divorce if they are in a bad or dangerous marriage without spiritual repercussions. The freedom to have sex outside of marriage, for reasons other than procreation, without being made to feel guilty or unclean. The freedom to watch TV shows or films, or to read books, which feature fantastic elements or non-Christian (which isn't the same as anti-Christian) sentiments or ideas (note: while this isn't an explicit Biblical prohibition, lots of Christians seem to feel nervous about it anyway). The freedom to trust scientists and, arguably, what they have observed about the world (again, a similar disclaimer as before). The freedom to take credit for one's own successes, rather than passing them on to a deity, and to take responsibility for one's failings, rather than blaming them on a devil. The freedom to believe in luck and coincidence. The freedom to treasure life more acutely, because it is the only one we get. The freedom to do what one wants on a Sunday. The freedom to marry who one wants, regardless of their religion, without spiritual qualms.

Personally? I think those things are important. Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity brings out the best in some people, and that some need it more than they need athiesm. But I do believe that there are things to be gained from athiesm, too.

I thank you for your point of view Secondeve,

yet I am alittle confused athiests already believe they are in control of their own

destiny, they freely divorse without concerns for spirtitual repercussion.

Everything you listed aside from gay marriage (minus a few states) they

can do and have been doing freely. All those things are what atheism is

offering to a Christian if they turn away from God?

Atheism is not giving these freedoms, those freedoms are already given to all!

I believe God gave us all the freedom to choose, and I don't begrudge anyone

that right but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the choices some make.

Yes it is a Christians belief in God that guides us in many of the choices we

make, and we are happy to have His guidence!

Why does atheism persist to begrudge us the right to disagree with them?

They can't just say fine you believe in God and I don't that is your right,

nope they can't do that instead they make movies and write books trying

to disprove God.

Spunky, many of the freedoms I listed are ones which Christians have only ostensibly: that is, they are capable of doing these things, but are commanded not to by God. Imagine a gay Christian who hates what they are because of what the Bible says. Athiesm is a belief which frees them from their self-loathing, because without the command of God, they are not an unclean, terrible person.

As for persisting in begruding the right to disagree, I would again say this can work both ways. Christian scientists go to great lengths sometimes to point out how athiesm and/or evolution cannot possibly be right; indeed, the whole concept of preaching is that you believe that, without salvation, I will go to hell, whereas athiests have no equivalent motivator to convert others, i.e. if you die a Christian, I don't believe you will go to hell, so on that front, I have no overpowering wish to save you.

[Spunky]

Secondeve,

Again I ty for your honesty.

You are true most everything can be viewed in another

way. I know there are gay Christians and it is sad that

some may feel that way, yet as Christians they know

Jesus loves them and He is there for them at all times.

He didn't force them to accept Him they chose to, which

is also choosing to adhere to His teachings.

God Bless!

[Guest yod]

Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

But Mark seems not to have known that washing one's hands before eating was only something that was required of Priests in Jesus' time. After the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem, in 70 AD, it was widespread among the people. Yet Mark said that the Pharisees noticed that some of the Disciples didn't adhere to this ritual, and had a problem with it. That is only one of many things in the Gospels that show that they were written much later than the writings of Paul.

k

Paul was unlike all the other Apostles mainly because he was a very well educated hellenistic jew. A Roman citizen born in Tarsus and raised in a greek world outside of Israel.

He does mention several details in the life of Yeshua as historic events also..but an Apostle's calling is to set up congregations and that is what Shaul did...

So most of his letters are about the day-to-day life of an assembly.

The people in it and where they are spiritually.

Shaul's writings are really just a collection of letters to friends that literally get read by everyone in the world! lol

That is why they are in the Bible. So we can see how they original community of faith lived.

And the other Apostles actually did walk with Yeshua in the land for about 3 years. Paul met him on the Road to Damascus after all of that was "finished" so maybe it would be reasonable to expect him to have a different perspective than the others, hmmmmm?

[Guest yod]

Spunky, many of the freedoms I listed are ones which Christians have only ostensibly: that is, they are capable of doing these things, but are commanded not to by God.

Those commands aren't any different than your mom telling you not to play in street. It is for your own protection.

This is not a vengeful reaction from an impetous God.

Imagine a gay Christian who hates what they are because of what the Bible says. Athiesm is a belief which frees them from their self-loathing, because without the command of God, they are not an unclean, terrible person.

They probably aren't any different thant the adulterous christian hating themselves so there isn't any reason to deal with orientation problems. It's a sin problem. Sin is what we need to be "free" of. Yeshua frees us from sin.

Example: Adultery destroys people. It is a sin. Anyone trapped in the sin of adultery with male or female will reap a hurricane in their life.

God not only warns us beforehand with His commands, but if we fail He restores us by His Son. The problem is that we will still reap what we sow for being disobedient to the truth. You can be forgiven by God much easier than by man.

Our God says that all humans can be free of sin....and we find abundant life when that happens. And quite the opposite of being considered an unclean or terrible person...our God says that each individual is of IMMENSE value simply because man is made in His image.

He thinks we are literally "to die for"

So we give our life in surrender to Him and He does the most amazingly wonderful transformation. We're still human and it takes a while for the pruning of our character...but at least the process has started.

As a former atheist who thought he knew what christianity was, and with all due respect (Geneva Convention) I doubt you have any idea what i'm talking about because it requires the Holy Spirit to discern spiritual things spiritually

You can't just pray to little sweet 8 ounce baby Jesus....

whereas athiests have no equivalent motivator to convert others, i.e. if you die a Christian, I don't believe you will go to hell, so on that front, I have no overpowering wish to save you.

oh c'mon...you wouldn't be here if you didn't

[aftwine]

Alright khalou you said "Mark saw the temple destroyed ...." meaning that the dates of the Gospels are written at times that aren't the accepted norm.

You say this for an accurate understanding of the entire picture, so that you can determine whether or not Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Christianity is for real.(and the only real)

So let me ask you a question, would you willfully die for something you hold as Truth.

And before you go into how tradition and legend says this and that, we know one apostle for sure without a doubt was martyred~James the son of Zebedee: He was put to death by Herod Agrippa I shortly before the day of the Passover, in the year 44 or about 11 years after the death of Christ. From Acts 12: 1-2.

Would you do that if you didn't believe it was true?

[khalou]

Khalou, you lack a few facts here. For someone who claims to be educated on the subject of God, you are out of touch on many things.

Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

The purpose of Pauls writings isnt to discuss the life of Christ, but the life of a believer in Christ. What we are supposed to do to follow Him. What we are to believe about the meaning of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul writes about Jesus many times. He discusses His death and resurrection in many passages.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

See, Paul refers to the crucifixion of Jesus here. But Paul wasnt meant to tell the events the way the gospel tells it. Paul's purpose was to teach the new believers what being Christian is about. Living for Him. How to live the life of a believer. Just as important as the gospel accounts of Jesus, we need to understand what it all means. That is the purpose of Paul's writings, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I'm still wondering what you have to say about this hitting your intellectual perusal, K.

Paul never met Jesus. Matter of fact, Paul had some serious conflicts with Peter (the rock on whom Jesus would build His church) and James in Jerusalem. The Romans destroyed that organization at Jerusalem, which left Paul to continue carefully, not to make the Romans angry. (PURE speculation on my part)

But here is a link (NOT to an anti-Christian site!) but to an article that summarizes what Biblical Scholars have determined about the early Christian factions, and why. It has NOTHING TO DO with harming Christianity. It is simply more information about it.

k

[Floatingaxe]

Paul did indeed meet Jesus...on the road to Damascus! He met him in a way we could only dream of. So don't say Paul never met the Saviour--he certainly did.

[Guest]

A Curiously Good Question!

{I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that. None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.}

So Curiosity Checks The Book~

David and Israel Learn From Their Bible!

Devil

"And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations."

(Leviticus 17:7 )

And, From David's Life:

Devil

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

(1 Chronicles 21:1 )

Davis speaks to God!

Hell

"And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:"

(2 Samuel 22:1 )

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"

(2 Samuel 22:6 )

Moses Speaks about The Devil and about Hell to all Israel!

Devil

"And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended."

(Deuteronomy 31:30 )

"They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not."

(Deuteronomy 32:17 )

Hell

"And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended."

(Deuteronomy 31:30 )

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

(Deuteronomy 32:22 )

{None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.}

The secret to The Truth is no secret!

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

(Deuteronomy 4:29 )

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

(Jeremiah 29:13 )

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

(Matthew 7:7-8 )

Love, Joe