Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[SoulGrind]

In a way, you are correct. The ridiculous adherence to many aspects of Christianity even over solid evidence has something to do with it. But that list just kept growing, and Christian apologetics just kept creeping toward the ridiculous. I may still be a Christan today if it weren't for the misinformation that is supported by the supposed faithful.

I am trying to find a group that understands the evidence, and are still Christian. So far, all I keep running into is people who have bought into the apologetics that twist the truth of things in order to make their point. I can't accept the opinion that science is a tool of Satan because I understand science and know that there is no global conspiracy here, nor could there be. I can't accept that the Jews don't even understand their own religion when their interpretation of their Holy Writing makes so much more sense than the impossible interpretations of most Christians.

There are Christians who know that the ancient Hebrews didn't know about Satan or Hell, but realize that God hadn't seen fit to let them know at the time. Those Christians are being realistic and are still being Christan's. Are there any here that actually study these things? No! Not so far.

I think I'll just move along. Nothing to see here.

But then, every once in awhile, someone like you comes along and shows transcendental wisdom and agape love. Whatever religion I might adopt would at least have to transcend my own sensibilities! Most here don't. They argue with me like animals fighting over a carcass. I didn't create the laws of nature, and I didn't create the rules by which facts are discerned. I am an innocent soul who wishes to see if there is anything here to believe.

To tell you the truth, I'd much rather adopt Islam or Judaism before I'd join in with most Christians.

And then you come along.

khalou - sometimes we need to take a step back - even from apologetics. Apologetics is just "defending the faith". Just keep in mind, it's man against man - in other words, imperfect man against imperfect man trying to defend their faith in an imperfect manner.

It is difficult at times - I have been smacked down so many times by evolutionsists and athiests who present very strong arguments against Christianity. But it is my faith in Christ that strengthens me. So with God's help, I pick myself back up, I study up, and I try again.

Unlike some Christians, I do believe science is a good thing - without science, we wouldn't have electricity, we wouldn't have air travel, we wouldn't have modern medicine, we wouldn't have an international space station, we wouldn't have these new fangled gizmos called computers by which to communicate with, etc.

Here is what I believe about science. Science explains the natural world (that God created) around us.

To many athiests are trying to use science to disprove God. You cannot prove or disprove God in a laboratory test tube. God's way to big for that.

Science however is really good at describing the way things work around us. But ask yourself... just because science explains away how something works, does it explain the existance of God and does it rule out thepossibility that maybe, just maybe, this is the way God intended the universe to work?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

and yet, with all your posts and arguments, it was this one that spoke to me.

k

How so Khalou?

Khalou, I would also stop looking at Christians as a means to an end. You misunderstand Grace my friend. The focus of Christianity is not Gods people. They are the focus of His Grace. The focus of Christianity is Jesus Christ.

Your looking for perfection in the objects of perfections Grace.

As far as transcendentalistic thought?

1Co

[secondeve]

It is difficult at times - I have been smacked down so many times by evolutionsists and athiests who present very strong arguments against Christianity. But it is my faith in Christ that strengthens me. So with God's help, I pick myself back up, I study up, and I try again.

Sorry to interrupt - this paragraph just grabbed me.

The reason a lot of athiests have trouble with Christian views of the truth is exactly because of the process you've just described. From our perspective, we are in the right, just as you are from yours. And most people, either accurately or not, claim to believe that what they want to know is the truth above all else, even if that truth might upset them.

So let's say, for the sake of argument, that a Christian and an athiest were having a discussion, and the athiest managed a few good, strong arguments that made the Christian think. If the Christian then said, after having claimed that they were after the truth, that they would go back to the Bible and think about it, the athiest might well feel like banging their head on the keyboard - because going back to the Bible means looking for an explanation in what is already presumed to be true, not examining the possibility that something else is true.

This is a frustration which goes both ways - imagine you made some good, strong arguments for the Bible to an athiest, who then said they'd go and look at scientific literature to see how your arguments were compatable with what they already believed. You'd be incredibly frustrated - because they would have missed the point entirely, and, in your view, they wouldn't be after the truth at all. Instead, they would already have convinced themselves that they were right, and so anything which appeared to contradict or question this must have an explanation within the scheme of what is believed, even though it might lack conclusive proof. This isn't unreasonable - just very, very human.

I believe it is impossible for anyone to 'seek truth' when they already think they've found it. To me, it's like a judge going into a trial with a preconcieved notion of who was innocent without having heard both sides: they would hear only evidence which supported their conclusion, aligned with it, or which at very least, when taken in a certain light, did not entirely undermine it.

It is hard for anyone to be objective; indeed, I don't believe we can ever truly achieve total objectivity, because we are human and therefore inherently biased. But if no effort is made to try and step away from what we already believe, then even if we are right in the end, it cannot be said of us that we were looking for the truth - we just happened to guess correctly.

Of course, the concept of faith is why most Christians put trust in God in the face of other evidence. We without faith (well, perhaps we have a kind of faith, but nothing so explicit or demanded of us by a holy book) find this difficult at times, because it means that, no matter how conclusive or reasonable an argument is made, it can be waved away; God will make sense of the seeming contradiction, even if man cannot.

I'd probably say to a Christian truth-seeker: write down a list of things that you believe about God and the universe, about how things in science which seem on the surface to be contradictory can be explained or reconciled. Then see how many things on the list are stated explicitly in the Bible, and which are your own theories based on the Bible to bridge the gap between what is stated and what isn't. And if the second list is longer than the first, then I'd say you're putting more faith in your own judgement than in God.

But that's just my 10 cents worth

[Floatingaxe]

I am an innocent soul who wishes to see if there is anything here to believe

I feel for you in this statement, for I believe that you really believe you are innocent. You speak as if you had the truth at one time, and then you cast it aside like some dirty rag! That is not innocence in the eyes of God. He must ache over that.

Either you were a Chrisitan and in that case, you are just a disobedient one now, or you never were one to begin with. A true believer yields fruit for all to see. One who doesn't reveal fruit is pruned, maybe even lopped right off the vine. It's a dangerous and precarious place to be, khalou. I trust you will discover that it doesn't take intellect to have salvation, but rather, faith!

God doesn't mind being questioned, but the Holy Spirit does mind being trampled. I will be praying for you.

[secondeve]

I am an innocent soul who wishes to see if there is anything here to believe

I feel for you in this statement, for I believe that you really believe you are innocent. You speak as if you had the truth at one time, and then you cast it aside like some dirty rag! That is not innocence in the eyes of God. He must ache over that.

Either you were a Chrisitan and in that case, you are just a disobedient one now, or you never were one to begin with. A true believer yields fruit for all to see. One who doesn't reveal fruit is pruned, maybe even lopped right off the vine. It's a dangerous and precarious place to be, khalou. I trust you will discover that it doesn't take intellect to have salvation, but rather, faith!

God doesn't mind being questioned, but the Holy Spirit does mind being trampled. I will be praying for you.

You know, I really dislike this kind of attitude. 'Obviously, if you're no longer Christian, you're doing it to spite God or because you were an uncommitted believer in the first place - not even a real Christian.' Obviously, the flaw is in the person's intentions or personality - surely, surely no intelligent thinking being would ever be anything else! It's all just to spite God, really. Athiesm, Islam, Zoroastrianism - in fact, everyone who never was Christian has no good reason for being so except their own persistant ignorance of the truth, and any "Christian" who de-converted is obviously just as bad - worse, because they saw the light and turned their backs, or pretended to see the light and then treated it like a joke.

I'm not trying to be rude, but do you really think like this? Is Christianity just an elitist gathering of the people most able to discern truth in the world? Or can people have genuine experiences which turn them from the path or make them other?

[Floatingaxe]

I am an innocent soul who wishes to see if there is anything here to believe

I feel for you in this statement, for I believe that you really believe you are innocent. You speak as if you had the truth at one time, and then you cast it aside like some dirty rag! That is not innocence in the eyes of God. He must ache over that.

Either you were a Chrisitan and in that case, you are just a disobedient one now, or you never were one to begin with. A true believer yields fruit for all to see. One who doesn't reveal fruit is pruned, maybe even lopped right off the vine. It's a dangerous and precarious place to be, khalou. I trust you will discover that it doesn't take intellect to have salvation, but rather, faith!

God doesn't mind being questioned, but the Holy Spirit does mind being trampled. I will be praying for you.

You know, I really dislike this kind of attitude. 'Obviously, if you're no longer Christian, you're doing it to spite God or because you were an uncommitted believer in the first place - not even a real Christian.' Obviously, the flaw is in the person's intentions or personality - surely, surely no intelligent thinking being would ever be anything else! It's all just to spite God, really. Athiesm, Islam, Zoroastrianism - in fact, everyone who never was Christian has no good reason for being so except their own persistant ignorance of the truth, and any "Christian" who de-converted is obviously just as bad - worse, because they saw the light and turned their backs, or pretended to see the light and then treated it like a joke.

I'm not trying to be rude, but do you really think like this? Is Christianity just an elitist gathering of the people most able to discern truth in the world? Or can people have genuine experiences which turn them from the path or make them other?

We are the light of the world, secondeve, and the salt of the earth. I am only speaking as the Word reveals. I am not condemning this man, khalou....he does it to himself. I am merely stating what could be the case with him. Either he never really knew Jesus Christ, or he has become an apostate, which is a very dangerous place to be in.

There is only one Truth, and there is only one path...JESUS!

[SoulGrind]

The reason a lot of athiests have trouble with Christian views of the truth is exactly because of the process you've just described. From our perspective, we are in the right, just as you are from yours. And most people, either accurately or not, claim to believe that what they want to know is the truth above all else, even if that truth might upset them.

So let's say, for the sake of argument, that a Christian and an athiest were having a discussion, and the athiest managed a few good, strong arguments that made the Christian think. If the Christian then said, after having claimed that they were after the truth, that they would go back to the Bible and think about it, the athiest might well feel like banging their head on the keyboard - because going back to the Bible means looking for an explanation in what is already presumed to be true, not examining the possibility that something else is true.

Ah - but you assume that the research is strictly Biblical in nature - when in actuality, it is much broader than that - it is historical, archaelogical, scientific, etc.

Please, don't assume that because I did not say "what" I research that it is limited to just scriptural references. I do know that about other Christians are quite enthusiastic about doing such research - one only need to look to the author Josh McDowell for a prime example of someone who employs both scriptural and secualr references in his essays.

If this were not the case, then yes, I would agree with you that this would be a biased attempt at research.

Of course, the concept of faith is why most Christians put trust in God in the face of other evidence. We without faith (well, perhaps we have a kind of faith, but nothing so explicit or demanded of us by a holy book) find this difficult at times, because it means that, no matter how conclusive or reasonable an argument is made, it can be waved away; God will make sense of the seeming contradiction, even if man cannot.

Faith is a particular aspect of Christianity - however, we are called not to have blind faith - and it is sad that so many Christians do have blind faith - as stated previously, we are called to use our minds and to test the spirits. When you debate a Christian who uses circular reasoning based soley on scripture in reference to secular scriticism, then yes, this is extremely frustrating. And believe me, it's just as frustrating (if not moreso) between Christians who are at odds.

[mrp1948]

I can not speak for the board K but I can for myself it does matter to me that you are no longer a christian, but it matters because the reason you are no longer a christian is the fault of christians. For myself who has never meant you I humbly apologize for failing you and any other who has walked away and I will pray that God will guide me to be a better brother sister and/or friend to those who seek and for you I will pray that you will see we are not all unfeeling and over zealous to the exclusion of others. God Bless

[Guest]

Does God really loose one of His?

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?"

"And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing."

"And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

(Luke 15:4-7 )

Rejoice! Rejoice! Rejoice!

Hallelujah!

[khalou]

In a way, you are correct. The ridiculous adherence to many aspects of Christianity even over solid evidence has something to do with it. But that list just kept growing, and Christian apologetics just kept creeping toward the ridiculous. I may still be a Christan today if it weren't for the misinformation that is supported by the supposed faithful.

I am trying to find a group that understands the evidence, and are still Christian. So far, all I keep running into is people who have bought into the apologetics that twist the truth of things in order to make their point. I can't accept the opinion that science is a tool of Satan because I understand science and know that there is no global conspiracy here, nor could there be. I can't accept that the Jews don't even understand their own religion when their interpretation of their Holy Writing makes so much more sense than the impossible interpretations of most Christians.

There are Christians who know that the ancient Hebrews didn't know about Satan or Hell, but realize that God hadn't seen fit to let them know at the time. Those Christians are being realistic and are still being Christan's. Are there any here that actually study these things? No! Not so far.

I think I'll just move along. Nothing to see here.

But then, every once in awhile, someone like you comes along and shows transcendental wisdom and agape love. Whatever religion I might adopt would at least have to transcend my own sensibilities! Most here don't. They argue with me like animals fighting over a carcass. I didn't create the laws of nature, and I didn't create the rules by which facts are discerned. I am an innocent soul who wishes to see if there is anything here to believe.

To tell you the truth, I'd much rather adopt Islam or Judaism before I'd join in with most Christians.

And then you come along.

khalou - sometimes we need to take a step back - even from apologetics. Apologetics is just "defending the faith". Just keep in mind, it's man against man - in other words, imperfect man against imperfect man trying to defend their faith in an imperfect manner.

It is difficult at times - I have been smacked down so many times by evolutionsists and athiests who present very strong arguments against Christianity. But it is my faith in Christ that strengthens me. So with God's help, I pick myself back up, I study up, and I try again.

Unlike some Christians, I do believe science is a good thing - without science, we wouldn't have electricity, we wouldn't have air travel, we wouldn't have modern medicine, we wouldn't have an international space station, we wouldn't have these new fangled gizmos called computers by which to communicate with, etc.

Here is what I believe about science. Science explains the natural world (that God created) around us.

To many athiests are trying to use science to disprove God. You cannot prove or disprove God in a laboratory test tube. God's way to big for that.

Science however is really good at describing the way things work around us. But ask yourself... just because science explains away how something works, does it explain the existance of God and does it rule out thepossibility that maybe, just maybe, this is the way God intended the universe to work?

Not at all. I agree 100% with everything you just wrote.

k