Do you know where "Christmas" came from?

[CWJ]

We don't live inder a "democracy", we live under the rule of the King of Kings!!

What he says......goes!

I believe Romans 14 that was quoted by The Journey just might be more about judging whether or not one has salvation than about obedience to the Lord's will.

Actually I believe that passage is all about one's salvation and NOT about OBEDIENCE, such as FishMan has been trying to get all to see. I think some careful reading of this passage is needed.

I for one see it as FishMan does concerning Christmas.

BUT I DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE'S SALVATION BY THIS ISSUE!!!!

Peace to all, Carl

[The Journey]

CWJ,

 Romans 14 has nothing to do about salvation.  What in your exegesis of that passage led you to that interpretation?  

- Steve

[CWJ]

Verse1...him that is weak in the faith(spiritually immature) recieve ye(accept those that are yet children in the faith)

Verse2..another who is weak,eateth herbs(thinks he must practice ceremony, has not fully learned the Grace of God)

Verse3...for God hath received him( saved reguardless, if you practice ceremony NOT thinking this saves you, or have abolished ceremony)

Verse4..this verse condemns judging another one's salvation, and ends by pointing to God's power to save and hold one up in the faith.

Verse5...be fully persuaded in his mind(have the assurance of salvation by God's Grace)

Actually these verses are dealing with people who were still practicing ceremonial law.  Here we see an explanation outlining the Grace of God in salvation's work and not the importance of ceremony.

I think the rest of chap 14 explains we are NOT to judge one's salvation by the things they may do, and gives us some wisdom on our own actions around the weaker in faith.

But we know that scripture tells us to point out the will of God, when we see it, to another saint.  This is an OBEDIENCE issue.

1John5:3.."For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous."

Without going verse by verse in chap 14, I hope that gives you an idea of my thought.  You see chap 14 deals with the practice of a Godly law no longer "needed"(hope that makes sense), whereas the Christmas issue deals with mixing pagan practices with worship.

So...in addressing the Christmas issue, we are not trying to establish a "law", but trying to point out the will of God.

I DON'T think any saint will loose salvation for practicing this "holiday" as the world does.

But I think they should definitely be shown the scriptural facts about pagan practices and how God views such.

Romans 14:12..."So then every one of us shall give an account of himself to God."

Praise the Lord of Lords, King Jesus! :inlove:

[The Journey]

Verse4..this verse condemns judging another one's salvation, and ends by pointing to God's power to save and hold one up in the faith.

Verse5...be fully persuaded in his mind(have the assurance of salvation by God's Grace)

No, I meant use a system of exegesis....not just type what you think the verses mean.

[CWJ]

The Journey, I follow you on the meat thing, and I knew about that.

BUT...the issue is still about doing pagan practices and incorporating them in worship.(on Christmas)

In Romans they aren't doing pagan worship or ceremony, just eating the meat that came from pagan sacrifice.

verse 2 talks about ceremonial law. verse 4 is dealing with salvation, that is, judging another's condition of. I never meant the whole chap. is about salvation.

I am not a professor emeritus, but do have the Holy Spirit to teach me all truth.(and scripture)

I will be interested in reading those pieces you suggested.

[The Journey]

CWJ,

 Everything we do is about worship.  Yes we have the Holy Spirit, but God still wants us to use our minds.  The Holy Spirit will not give us private interpretations of His word.  Celebrating the birth of Jesus in the month of December may be a sin for you.  I guess my point is that through the years I have seen Christians with peculiar beliefs and convictions ride like Don Quixote against the windmills...only its not windmills that they hurt its their brothers and sisters in the Lord.  Many will spare nothing to beat down those they see as more worldly than themselves.  Each of us have a little different relationship with the Master.  And thats ok.  In your further exegesis of this portion of the apostles letter to the church at Rome you'll come across the concept that if it violates your conscience then its sin for you.  IF Santa is sinful to you...then stay away from him.  IF singing Silent Night in December is sinful to you...then sing other songs and work through the holiday season to show the Lord your dedication. But don't put other believers under the yoke of your peculiar convictions.  Your not their Master....and they are not your servants.

- Steve

[Guest FishMan]

Journey,

With all due respect to you as my brother in Christ, I don't think being an expert on meat or studying the writings of some DTS guy is required for this subject. I think common sense is enough for me to stay away from Christmas.

Don't you find it a bit strange that at every chance they get, this world tries to remove any mention or reminder of Jesus Christ? In the schools, in the Congress, in the military, in the courthouses, etc...

But.....when Christmas comes around, this world just flat gobbles up the holiday with a giant spoon!

Why do they do that? Because they are so in love with Jesus and want to worship Him and honor Him? Uh, I don't think so...

I think that alone tells me that Satan uses the holiday to help people feel all tingly inside and keep them deceived into thinking they got it all figured out and they are OK with God because they keep Christmas.

Ever notice how jam-packed the churches are on December 25th? You think those are Spirit-filled worshippers in there or are they just trying to smooth things over with the "Man Upstairs" for one more year? I think the latter...

Let's put it where it's at: Christmas is about pagan traditions and symbols, feeling good in the flesh, getting all you can, and lying to kids. Sorry to be so direct, but it's true.

I would rather worship God 365 days a year as His Spirit leads me, not as man would like me to.

God Bless you brother...

[Lanakila]

If they actually get their hearts right with God, isn't that a good thing? Many people get saved around this holiday season. I myself was saved soon after a Christmas 17 years ago. Steve's exegete was excellent by the way. We are to live in the world but not be of the world. How that is applied in the individual Christian's life is just that: individual. We at one time did away with Christmas trees and tv's and movies ect, ect. Did this depriving ourselves make us more spiritual? No, to the contrary it made us very judgemental of the rest of the Christian church that did hold to our exact convictions. We got ourselves so far from God in our separated Christian bubble, and so far separated that we became like monks. If we want to be in the world but not of the world, we need to be careful that our convictions don't cause us to think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

Again I highly recommend a book by Coleman called: The Pharisees Guide To Total Holiness. This book explains that where God is silent (like perhaps in the celebrating Christmas or not issue) we should remain silent. Its not our job to set up boundaries for other Christians. Let the Holy Spirit and God's Word be our guide and not other Christians or even churches.

Being in the world but not of it is hard enough without someone telling you that you are all messed up, when God hasn't convicted you of any of this stuff. I pray for you my legalistic brethern that you may grow in the "grace" and "knowlege" of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Read Romans and Galatian's if you still have questions about this issue.

[CWJ]

The Journey...you might want to check Matthew Henry's commentary on Romans14. You'll see the same interpretation of the first 6 verses I had.

As we grow in Christ, become closer and more spiritually mature, the things of the world become more distinct as to what they really are.

This is not becoming a legalistic pharisee, but getting to learn more about God's will. James4:17

Someone may claim God is silent on certain issues, but a study of scriptures will more often than not point out God's will, whether it fits your definition of "liberty" or not.

We are free from sin in our liberty in Christ, not from doing God's will. Phil2:13

The lesson from Romans 14 is to NOT judge or have an holier than thou attitude to those spiritually immature, who have not learned as much about God's will yet.

I DON'T pass judgement on saints for the Christmas issue, BUT DO POINT OUT THE FACTS ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES!

So....does this make me a "pharisee"?

Like I quoted earlier...Jesus said the world would hate Him, so why does the world make a big to-do about His supposed b'day??

I think there are some spots here that some just plainly refuse to see.

James1:27..."Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and TO KEEP HIMSELF UNSPOTTED FROM THE WORLD."

Celebrating Christmas is not wrong...I think....as long as you erase the pagan influence and keep it to celebrating Jesus.

Peace, Carl

[The Journey]

Carl,

 This will be my last post on this issue.  Your interpretation of weak/strong is the way most Chrisitians interpret this passage especially when they want to beat up on other believers.  When one is feeling particularly proud its nice to envision ourselves strong mature warriors with a honed sense of right and wrong.  Those who are weak don't know any better.  Nothing could be farther from the truth as presented in Romans 14.  The apostle's point is that we are free to partake of idol meat, observe or not observe religious holidays...but those who are STRONG are the Christians who are partaking of the freedoms.  The WEAK are those who feel its wrong.  The STRONG Christians are those who understand that these silly things don't change our relationship to the Master.  I took a look at Matthew Henry's commentary and he speaks of judging....but the judging has nothing to do with whether or not they are a believer.   The apostle states he would limit his use of the FREEDOMS we have in Christ if it would make a weaker brother stumble.  This is a problem Americanized Christianity has wallowed in for years.  We have little stomach for true exegesis and study of a passage of scripture.  Whole sermons are preached on topics that have nothing to do with what the text actually states.

- Steve  

P.S.

Peculiar convictions not grounded in scripture makes you the norm in the organized church.   You would be a welcomed speaker in most all congregations...your an evangelist now with a message!!   The end of your sermon would involve repeatidly saying the word Satan when you meant to say Santa and then point out how sly the ole' devil is because you simply switch the n and t in Santa and you have SATAN!!!  It might make you rich....but it wouldn't make you a pharisee.