Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[spiritman]

You know that this discussion among both sides, those who believe once saved always saved and those who believe if you sin once you will go to hell, seems to lack one very important element. It is called a balanced study.

One important rule to remember in bible study, is that scripture never contradicts itself. If it appears that it is, your interpretation is incorrect. Take a piece of paper, and on one column list all of the scriptures that appear to say a Christian that sins goes to hell, then in the second column place all the scriptures that appear to say once saved always saved.

The results are that those who believe in once saved always saved are wrong. However, God has made provision enabling them to repent and come back to Christ. Such is the case in James 5:14-20 which says,

14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years!

18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again.

19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again,

20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

This post is intended for all those who do not believe in O S A S, and to whom I would like to make a challenge, but firstly I would ask if you accept that Scriptures does not disagree with itself, in other words, it cannot possibly both support and at the same time deny O S A S.

I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth.

If you can do this, then I will without hesitation apologize for putting forward false teaching on this Forum, but remember, it must be all of the material bellow, and not just some of it. If you cannot do this then I suggest you do not post any more anti O S A S, material on this web site.

Edwin Brain. (pabrain)

Col 3:1 IF then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him,

And delivers them

Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,

1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword

Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*

Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The scripture that you quoted from me is a good starting point to show that a person can, fall from grace, lets look at the scripture that I posted above.

First of all lets ask here who james is talking to. He is talking to Christiains.

James 5:14-20 which says,

14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years!

18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again.

19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again,

20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins

I'd like to see ya respond to the one above. there are other scriptures that show that one can fall from grace besides this one, but I don't see any satisfactory rebutal for James 5:14-20. If you rebute this one I'll move on to the next one. deal

Hi spiritman.

Thank you for your post of today at 7.30AM.

As you have refused to take up the challenge I gave to you in my post of yesterday, an extract from which is given bellow. I see no reason to defend my position in respect of your quotation from James.

"I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth."

Take up my challenge, and I will take up yours. deal.

Hi pabrain,

Thank you for your response. Here is my postion on this subject. you are trying to desprove my scripture with your scripture correct? The problem with this is that scripture never contradicts itself correct? So if this is the case the only hope you have of disproving me would be to prove that my interpretation is off. Please feel free to give it a shot. trying to prove scripture wrong with other scriptures is like your own body rejectiing itself. Scripture is never wrong it's the interpreter that is wrong.

Now let me tell you my position on this subject one more time. If you're a Christian who after receiving the gift of eternal life, and then turn away totally, I'm not talking about a christian who is weak in the flesh, and is going through the process of santification. ( Who is sorry for his/ her sin, and is praying for strength to overcome and with a genuine heart and despises their sin; I'm talking about a Christian who does everything he or she can against the kingdom of God.

Here are some scriptures about sanctification:

1 Cor 1:30 (KJV). 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification.

1 Thess 4:3 (KJV) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

2 Thess 2:13 (KJV)13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:2 (KJV) 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Matthew Henry's take on sanctification: Matthew 22:12:And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 22:12-14 (KJV) The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that had not on a wedding-garment. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding-garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding-garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding-feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding-garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King.

[Floatingaxe]

Why are women pastors a sign of falling away? I am sorry, but to include that in your list is such a slap in the face of God. I am not wishing to hi-jack here, but I could not let it go by when I read such a statement. No need to respond.

I know that this is a debate in itsself, but it was mentioned and needs to be answered -

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

A woman pastor usurps the authority of the man who's place is behind the pulpit.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Of course we are secure! I trust God at His Word that as I obey, I will receive my reward in heaven.

This is correct. We are secure and many have relayed many of the scriptures that convey these things. We all believe that our reward will not be taken away and that it is forever, but where people are missing the boat is in the understanding that I can lose it when I give up on Christianity and live in sin without repentance. This is not from committing one sin, but when there is sin in my life that I don't want to give up.

Let's say that I live my Christian life to the best of my ability, but to me I don't think there is anything wrong with telling little white lies. When somebody calls for me on the phone do I tell who answers it to say I'm not home? These are still lies and these are just some of the small sins that people won't give up and will take us to hell.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We are told to examine ourselves. Is there sin in my life that I have not repented of?

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

When we examine and judge ourselves we are looking to see if there is sin in our lives still so that we can repent of it so that we are not condemned with this world when we are judged by Christ.

The sins that will take me to hell are not the ones that I fall into and work on to overcome. The ones that will take me to hell are the ones that I refuse to give up and never repent of.

If we read ALL of the scriptures that have been given we will see that the reward that is given is given to them that worked out their salvation by repenting of their sins.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22:13-15 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

A deeper study of the Word is really necessary on this subject, because as Paul may have said those things concerning women, why did he say them? What was going on in the church that caused him to instruct thus? He then says many other things that directly and indirectly refer to women in leadership within the churches! Is Paul nuts? I think not! You must delve deeper!

[AMB]

You know that this discussion among both sides, those who believe once saved always saved and those who believe if you sin once you will go to hell, seems to lack one very important element. It is called a balanced study.

One important rule to remember in bible study, is that scripture never contradicts itself. If it appears that it is, your interpretation is incorrect. Take a piece of paper, and on one column list all of the scriptures that appear to say a Christian that sins goes to hell, then in the second column place all the scriptures that appear to say once saved always saved.

The results are that those who believe in once saved always saved are wrong. However, God has made provision enabling them to repent and come back to Christ. Such is the case in James 5:14-20 which says,

14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years!

18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again.

19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again,

20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

This post is intended for all those who do not believe in O S A S, and to whom I would like to make a challenge, but firstly I would ask if you accept that Scriptures does not disagree with itself, in other words, it cannot possibly both support and at the same time deny O S A S.

I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth.

If you can do this, then I will without hesitation apologize for putting forward false teaching on this Forum, but remember, it must be all of the material bellow, and not just some of it. If you cannot do this then I suggest you do not post any more anti O S A S, material on this web site.

Edwin Brain. (pabrain)

Col 3:1 IF then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him,

And delivers them

Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,

1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword

Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*

Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The scripture that you quoted from me is a good starting point to show that a person can, fall from grace, lets look at the scripture that I posted above.

First of all lets ask here who james is talking to. He is talking to Christiains.

James 5:14-20 which says,

14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years!

18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again.

19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again,

20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins

I'd like to see ya respond to the one above. there are other scriptures that show that one can fall from grace besides this one, but I don't see any satisfactory rebutal for James 5:14-20. If you rebute this one I'll move on to the next one. deal

Hi spiritman.

Thank you for your post of today at 7.30AM.

As you have refused to take up the challenge I gave to you in my post of yesterday, an extract from which is given bellow. I see no reason to defend my position in respect of your quotation from James.

"I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth."

Take up my challenge, and I will take up yours. deal.

Hi pabrain,

Thank you for your response. Here is my postion on this subject. you are trying to desprove my scripture with your scripture correct? The problem with this is that scripture never contradicts itself correct? So if this is the case the only hope you have of disproving me would be to prove that my interpretation is off. Please feel free to give it a shot. trying to prove scripture wrong with other scriptures is like your own body rejectiing itself. Scripture is never wrong it's the interpreter that is wrong.

Now let me tell you my position on this subject one more time. If you're a Christian who after receiving the gift of eternal life, and then turn away totally, I'm not talking about a christian who is weak in the flesh, and is going through the process of santification. ( Who is sorry for his/ her sin, and is praying for strength to overcome and with a genuine heart and despises their sin; I'm talking about a Christian who does everything he or she can against the kingdom of God.

Here are some scriptures about sanctification:

1 Cor 1:30 (KJV). 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification.

1 Thess 4:3 (KJV) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

2 Thess 2:13 (KJV)13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:2 (KJV) 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Matthew Henry's take on sanctification: Matthew 22:12:And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 22:12-14 (KJV) The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that had not on a wedding-garment. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding-garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding-garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding-feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding-garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King.

[spiritman]

You know that this discussion among both sides, those who believe once saved always saved and those who believe if you sin once you will go to hell, seems to lack one very important element. It is called a balanced study.

One important rule to remember in bible study, is that scripture never contradicts itself. If it appears that it is, your interpretation is incorrect. Take a piece of paper, and on one column list all of the scriptures that appear to say a Christian that sins goes to hell, then in the second column place all the scriptures that appear to say once saved always saved.

The results are that those who believe in once saved always saved are wrong. However, God has made provision enabling them to repent and come back to Christ. Such is the case in James 5:14-20 which says,

14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years!

18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again.

19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again,

20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

This post is intended for all those who do not believe in O S A S, and to whom I would like to make a challenge, but firstly I would ask if you accept that Scriptures does not disagree with itself, in other words, it cannot possibly both support and at the same time deny O S A S.

I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth.

If you can do this, then I will without hesitation apologize for putting forward false teaching on this Forum, but remember, it must be all of the material bellow, and not just some of it. If you cannot do this then I suggest you do not post any more anti O S A S, material on this web site.

Edwin Brain. (pabrain)

Col 3:1 IF then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Col 3:2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him,

And delivers them

Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,

1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword

Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*

Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The scripture that you quoted from me is a good starting point to show that a person can, fall from grace, lets look at the scripture that I posted above.

First of all lets ask here who james is talking to. He is talking to Christiains.

James 5:14-20 which says,

14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.

16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

17 Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for the next three and a half years!

18 Then he prayed for rain, and down it poured. The grass turned green, and the crops began to grow again.

19 My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again,

20 you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins

I'd like to see ya respond to the one above. there are other scriptures that show that one can fall from grace besides this one, but I don't see any satisfactory rebutal for James 5:14-20. If you rebute this one I'll move on to the next one. deal

Hi spiritman.

Thank you for your post of today at 7.30AM.

As you have refused to take up the challenge I gave to you in my post of yesterday, an extract from which is given bellow. I see no reason to defend my position in respect of your quotation from James.

"I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth."

Take up my challenge, and I will take up yours. deal.

Hi pabrain,

Thank you for your response. Here is my postion on this subject. you are trying to desprove my scripture with your scripture correct? The problem with this is that scripture never contradicts itself correct? So if this is the case the only hope you have of disproving me would be to prove that my interpretation is off. Please feel free to give it a shot. trying to prove scripture wrong with other scriptures is like your own body rejectiing itself. Scripture is never wrong it's the interpreter that is wrong.

Now let me tell you my position on this subject one more time. If you're a Christian who after receiving the gift of eternal life, and then turn away totally, I'm not talking about a christian who is weak in the flesh, and is going through the process of santification. ( Who is sorry for his/ her sin, and is praying for strength to overcome and with a genuine heart and despises their sin; I'm talking about a Christian who does everything he or she can against the kingdom of God.

Here are some scriptures about sanctification:

1 Cor 1:30 (KJV). 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification.

1 Thess 4:3 (KJV) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

2 Thess 2:13 (KJV)13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:2 (KJV) 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Matthew Henry's take on sanctification: Matthew 22:12:And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 22:12-14 (KJV) The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that had not on a wedding-garment. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding-garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding-garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding-feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding-garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King.

[Eliyahuw]

Hi spiritman.

Thank you for your post of today at 7.30AM.

As you have refused to take up the challenge I gave to you in my post of yesterday, an extract from which is given bellow. I see no reason to defend my position in respect of your quotation from James.

"I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth."

Take up my challenge, and I will take up yours. deal.

I am just going to save a lot of typing and wasting of time and point out that if you believe that we can lose our salvation then you believe that christs sacrifice wasn't good enough to save us. Because if we can lose salvation, then we would sacrifice christ over and over and over again.

The scriptures in Hebrews 6 1-8 and 10:27 were written to the hebrews or jews that had become christians because they were having doubts and considering going back to judaism and rejecting christianity. The author of hebrews was pointing out the pointlessness in that. Furthermore, the actions that would have to be done would prevent a christian from being able to lose salvation in that no christian has ever had all 9 gifts at one time, not even paul.

[AMB]

Hi spiritman.

Thank you for your post of today at 7.30AM.

As you have refused to take up the challenge I gave to you in my post of yesterday, an extract from which is given bellow. I see no reason to defend my position in respect of your quotation from James.

"I would like you to have a look at all the Bible verses given bellow, and taking each in turn show conclusively that they do not indicate that OS A S, is the truth."

Take up my challenge, and I will take up yours. deal.

I am just going to save a lot of typing and wasting of time and point out that if you believe that we can lose our salvation then you believe that christs sacrifice wasn't good enough to save us. Because if we can lose salvation, then we would sacrifice christ over and over and over again.

The scriptures in Hebrews 6 1-8 and 10:27 were written to the hebrews or jews that had become christians because they were having doubts and considering going back to judaism and rejecting christianity. The author of hebrews was pointing out the pointlessness in that. Furthermore, the actions that would have to be done would prevent a christian from being able to lose salvation in that no christian has ever had all 9 gifts at one time, not even paul.

Eliyahuw,

Although your reply sounds good and very spiritual, is it scriptual? If what you say is true how would you explain these scriptures:

Matthew 24:13 KJVA

(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So those who

[eric]

Ponder this;In Paul's first letter to the Thessies:16 -18 he tells them of the 2nd coming of the Lord and speaks of a resurrection./rature (you choose ) and to comfort one another with this knowledge, agree?

In Pauls second letter to the thessies, 2:1-3. he tells them not to be worried by spirit or mind or letter from us concerning the day at hand. Then he said *let no man deceive you* for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first. Not possibly or probably, but it shall occur.

Now my question which saint is going to fall from what. He is, after all, adressing the church, which is made up of a gathering of the saints and you can't be an unsaved saint, because anyone who is not saved has nothing to fall away from and Paul was adamant that some would fall away,,,,,So if a saint falls away, it means he has given up his faith, his belief in the Lord's salvation, and the word of God and is gone back to the world, which we are commanded to hate according to James 4:4. Also Jesus, Himself said in Matt 24 the love of some will wax and only those who endure until the end shall be saved. So if you are hot for the Lord when you die, you're in... if you are cold you're out,.... and if you are only luke warm you better do somethin about it or you will be spat out of His mouth.

have good day.

e

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw,

Although your reply sounds good and very spiritual, is it scriptual? If what you say is true how would you explain these scriptures:

Yes it is scriptural, and while i don't have the time to go into it as it will take at least a month to go through all of it. There are around 25 passages that are misunderstood and are used to deny eternal security. There are far more passages that embrace eternal security. I just pointed out two passages in my post above in how they were used to try and disprove eternal security. They weren't written to christians in general but to jewish christians that were thinking they could just go back to the way things were. You know, give christianity a test drive, 30 day money back guarantee type of thing.

The problem with all your passages that your posting is they deny the doctrine of christ.

If you deny the doctrine of christ your in error! And if you deny the doctrine of christ then you are promoting false teaching/prophacies.

The doctrine of Christ says that Christs sacrifice was enough to save us from our sins and give us everlasting life. Where does it say you have to work for a gift?

A gift is a gift, something freely given, with no expectation of anything in return.

For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast.

Is Christ a liar??

Either he said it was a gift, or he is a Liar. You my friend have a conundrum here.

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw,

Although your reply sounds good and very spiritual, is it scriptual? If what you say is true how would you explain these scriptures:

Ok real quick i am going to address some of your post.

Matthew 24:13 KJVA

(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So those who

[AMB]

Eliyahuw,

Although your reply sounds good and very spiritual, is it scriptual? If what you say is true how would you explain these scriptures:

Yes it is scriptural, and while i don't have the time to go into it as it will take at least a month to go through all of it. There are around 25 passages that are misunderstood and are used to deny eternal security. There are far more passages that embrace eternal security. I just pointed out two passages in my post above in how they were used to try and disprove eternal security. They weren't written to christians in general but to jewish christians that were thinking they could just go back to the way things were. You know, give christianity a test drive, 30 day money back guarantee type of thing.

The problem with all your passages that your posting is they deny the doctrine of christ.

If you deny the doctrine of christ your in error! And if you deny the doctrine of christ then you are promoting false teaching/prophacies.

The doctrine of Christ says that Christs sacrifice was enough to save us from our sins and give us everlasting life. Where does it say you have to work for a gift?

A gift is a gift, something freely given, with no expectation of anything in return.

For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast.

Is Christ a liar??

Either he said it was a gift, or he is a Liar. You my friend have a conundrum here.

Thanks for the reply my friend. It is interesting that you would think that I am questioning the integrity of our saviour by pointing out scriptures, but that is a point of view you've chosen to take. We are all here to grow, and we should do that in love.

From my viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think someone walking away from Christ has anything to do with denying the doctrine of Christ . . . Christ is still faithful to those that endure. The gift is given, but you can deny a gift, you can walk away from a gift, if I don't recieve and treasure the gift then is it forced apon me? No. The gift itself is a treasure, that should be treasured, something we can not earn. I have not said we have to earn the gift, but we can walk away from the gift. Do you have all the gifts you ever been given? No, none of us do, but the ones we cherrish we keep, and we protect them and put them in a place of honor. The same is true with the gift of salvation, from what I beleive the scriptures are saying.

I don't remember saying it wasn't a gift . . . why are you arguing that? I agree completely. Walking away from Christ does nothing to the integrity of the Word, or what He is willing to do. It is our will that deny's Him, not His doing. His gift is available to us, free, and it is given by faith, I agree completely, and I don't believe He would take it back, but the scriptures I quoted seem to indicate that we can walk away from our gift.

Does the word not say faith without works is dead . . . and does not Phil 2:12 say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So yes, the gift is free and can be accepted by faith, but what we do with the gift will determine our outcome. Does it say the road is narrow because it will not have trials you'll have to work through. And what if I don't work our my salvation with fear and trembling and continue in sin and sit around saying I am saved by faith, he knows how weak I am, His grace is sufficient to me. I believe we need to press toward the prize. There are eternal rewards and judgements that we will all have to face.

Of clarification, the word says it is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Him . . . so as long as something in you is asking the questions, and searching out truth, you would still be saved. Those that lose their salvation have no desire to get back into right standing with God. It is like they are completely shut off to His truth and influence.

I once beleive OSAS, but those that choose to harden their hearts and walk away and deny him, and have no desire or inner conviction about knowing Him intimately, I believe they can walk away from their free gift.

To agree with you, it is a free gift . . . but by me denying that gift and walking away from it does nothing to the person that gave me the gift . . . Jesus' integrity and the truth of the Word will always remain.

In service to our King. Love you all.