Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[RCruise]

About 2 years after this dissertation was accepted and my degree awarded, my Lord patiently led me through the New Testament, showing me things I had never seen before in the Scriptures. He was proving to me just what the Scriptural position on eternal security realy is and the research literally blew my mind. I now know the Scriptural position is that you really can loose your salvation (think Adam in the Garden), but it is really hard to acomplish such a feat.

And there it is in a nutshell (no pun intended)

I really don't like to debate this issue myself for I know that such debate can weaken and undermine the Word of God in a less mature Believer's heart. While Truth must prevail and will, so many circumstances in one's walk can convince a less armored soul they have lost their Salvation. And, like you pointed out and I attempted to do in a earlier post, The Lord is not going to let us get away easily and without much obstacles and beckonings to prevent us from such falling or departing.

Persistent, Abiding in Christ in Intimacy of Relatioship is what He revealed to me in October of 2006. As times go forth and the enemy gets stronger and takes dominion over all the earth, many will give up for lack of that Relationship. It really saddened and stirred my soul when I saw that. We must encourage one another to stay in that kind of Faith regardless of what is going on. To draw on His Provision and Strength as He tried to get the children of Israel to do in their Exodus from Egypt. And not all of them "entered His Rest" for they could not "endure the trip" with Faithfulness and Trust but went after their own ways inspite of the many warnings and dealings God sent their way.

[Phil.2:12]

Thanks, Ron for those kind words. I firmly believe that if the Body of Christ (those born again) would simply get their heads out of the sands containing the traditions of men and denominations and bury them in the Word of God, many of these senseless debates could be finally put to rest. BTW, how do you form paragraphs? My posts look like one long paragraph and I would rather break up the soliloquy into more meaningful paragraphs. Easier to read, also. For further background on me, I left a lengthy post in the welcome section under the thread "I'm a newbie".

[RCruise]

Thanks, Ron for those kind words. I firmly believe that if the Body of Christ (those born again) would simply get their heads out of the sands containing the traditions of men and denominations and bury them in the Word of God, many of these senseless debates could be finally put to rest. BTW, how do you form paragraphs? My posts look like one long paragraph and I would rather break up the soliloquy into more meaningful paragraphs. Easier to read, also. For further background on me, I left a lengthy post in the welcome section under the thread "I'm a newbie".

"The Sands of men's doctrines and denominations...." I like that! I feel a Sermon coming on out of that!! I find it funny since you came from the SBC and I came out of the PCofG (Pentdcostal Church of God) who did not believe in OSAS but for some reason, I did. I disagreed with two main parts of their theological teachings which blew me out of ordaination in PCofG. Well the OSAS was no biggie for I wasn't locked into it but the pre-Trib on their part while I see and showed them in Scripture with no commentaries needed that only the Pre-Wrath First Resurrection held up. But the Lord, as He did with you, led me through the Scriptures. For me, the one that stood up in my face was "blot out...from The Book of Life..." in Revelation. I did a double take on that one.

Even the smallest amount of education and common sense will tell a person; "Hey, wait! You cannot 'blot out' something that was not written in to begin with..." And it was on from that point. I searched and prayed and began to see all the Scriptures that warn or actually prophesy of it happening. One of those I had studied and used (2 Thess 2:1-3) to prove even Paul didn't preach pre-trib but dispelled it as a falsehood to the Thessalonians and bang...."great falling away first.." "Falling away" from what? The Faith in Jesus Christ. And again, the "many shall depart from the Faith giving heed to seducing doctrines..." These are prophecies that will occur no matter what. And of course we see it happening before our eyes especially over the last few decades.

But, as I put it before, I am very careful on two fronts anymore. One to not tear up wheat pulling tares but gently show and let the Holy Ghost have His way and, we are cautioned against railing in non-profitable doctrines but to point to the one and only True doctrine in The Word. I like it that way better because when it is clear and concise in His Word, it stops all hainsaying for we can just say; "Hey! Take it up with The Author".

PS: I went to my Control Center and turned on Rich Text Editor instead of Standard Editor.

Next, I type the paragraph (type a few words...go back highlight, increase font and boldness for my eyes - cataracts) and then type it continuous until I want a break. Then I hit return once. It appears in the screen that it is next line but I found that if you hit CR twice leaving one space lilne, you end up with several setting the paragraphs way apart. Then it automatically puts a blank separator space line between them (sometimes) I hit preview to make sure. hope that helps

[Mutzrein]

No, because look at these scriptures -

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is putting both of them together. We cannot separate them.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Being "Born Again" we are raised in the newness of life.

Oh I see. The way you are interpreting being born of water is

[Phil.2:12]

Thanks, Ron for those kind words. I firmly believe that if the Body of Christ (those born again) would simply get their heads out of the sands containing the traditions of men and denominations and bury them in the Word of God, many of these senseless debates could be finally put to rest. BTW, how do you form paragraphs? My posts look like one long paragraph and I would rather break up the soliloquy into more meaningful paragraphs. Easier to read, also. For further background on me, I left a lengthy post in the welcome section under the thread "I'm a newbie".

"The Sands of men's doctrines and denominations...." I like that! I feel a Sermon coming on out of that!! I find it funny since you came from the SBC and I came out of the PCofG (Pentdcostal Church of God) who did not believe in OSAS but for some reason, I did. I disagreed with two main parts of their theological teachings which blew me out of ordaination in PCofG. Well the OSAS was no biggie for I wasn't locked into it but the pre-Trib on their part while I see and showed them in Scripture with no commentaries needed that only the Pre-Wrath First Resurrection held up. But the Lord, as He did with you, led me through the Scriptures. For me, the one that stood up in my face was "blot out...from The Book of Life..." in Revelation. I did a double take on that one.

Even the smallest amount of education and common sense will tell a person; "Hey, wait! You cannot 'blot out' something that was not written in to begin with..." And it was on from that point. I searched and prayed and began to see all the Scriptures that warn or actually prophesy of it happening. One of those I had studied and used (2 Thess 2:1-3) to prove even Paul didn't preach pre-trib but dispelled it as a falsehood to the Thessalonians and bang...."great falling away first.." "Falling away" from what? The Faith in Jesus Christ. And again, the "many shall depart from the Faith giving heed to seducing doctrines..." These are prophecies that will occur no matter what. And of course we see it happening before our eyes especially over the last few decades.

But, as I put it before, I am very careful on two fronts anymore. One to not tear up wheat pulling tares but gently show and let the Holy Ghost have His way and, we are cautioned against railing in non-profitable doctrines but to point to the one and only True doctrine in The Word. I like it that way better because when it is clear and concise in His Word, it stops all hainsaying for we can just say; "Hey! Take it up with The Author".

PS: I went to my Control Center and turned on Rich Text Editor instead of Standard Editor.

Next, I type the paragraph (type a few words...go back highlight, increase font and boldness for my eyes - cataracts) and then type it continuous until I want a break. Then I hit return once. It appears in the screen that it is next line but I found that if you hit CR twice leaving one space lilne, you end up with several setting the paragraphs way apart. Then it automatically puts a blank separator space line between them (sometimes) I hit preview to make sure. hope that helps

Thanks again, Ron. Feel free to use whatever you want from any of my posts since we serve the same Heavenly Father and He is the inspiration (If any can be found) in any of our words. Bottom line; it's all good.

I changed to rich text editor and now am trying it out in this post. We have both had an exceptional journey out of the jungle of crooked trees and twisted vines that our denominational doctrines have become and are now in the clear prairie that is the Word of God. It is here, through the agency of the Holy Spirit as He connects with our spirit man, that we learn just what is true and what is not in the Holy Scriptures. Best part of it is that we need no advanced education to dwell in God's prairie, for the Holy Spirit is able to communicate with anyone at the level they can understand. He is, after all,the greatest of teachers.

I'm quite convinced, based on Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, that my Heavenly Father never meant for denominations to be formed. 1 Corinthians 3:1-7 seems to me to be a rather stinging rebuke given by Paul to the Corinthian church. Seems they were dead set to start two denominations right there in that church! Those being the Pauline denomination and the Apollian denomination with neither having a good grasp of what the Scriptures mean because Paul called them "carnal" or fleshly Christians in verse 1 and fleshly Christians will never understand the the depths to be found in God's Word. Scripture clearly wants members of the body of Christ to share insights with each other, but to never become so dogmatic that, in sharing, these members of God's family begin to say that "my viewpoint on this subject is the correct one because my traditions and dogmas of my denomination have proved this position to me". Well, they don't actually say that in so many words, but that's clearly what they mean when the discussions turn into arguments and they fall back on what their denominations say (or their Pastor tells them) to prove that they have the right view and you don't.

Seems that all denominations were formed out of disagreement. The prevaling view was challenged by believers who had a different view and felt that their view was Scripturally accurate where the opposing view was not accurate from the Scriptural standpoint. This is exactly what was happening in the Corinthian church when some members said that only Paul was right and they would believe only him, the Pauline denomination. Other members said that only Apollos had the truth and they were following him, the Apollian denomination. Truth be told, both Paul and Apollos were teaching the the exact same truth from God but the members of the congregation couldn't see it this way. Some (the Paulines) saw the teaching they were receiving only through a filter set of Paul's teaching method that they had constructed for themselves. The others (the Apollians) saw the teaching through a filter set of Apollos' teaching they had likewise constructed for themselves. Neither filter set was sactioned by Jesus, so they were both off base. But they argued and debated anyway, just like the Body of Christ is still doing today as they view the revealed Word of God through their own filter set they have built up using the traditions and dogmas of their particular denomination.

This is so widespread that one simply has to browse through the forums on this (or any other Christian forum) website to see this tension between the various denominational viewpoints that are routinely posted on these boards. This is not the way our Heavenly Father wants His children to share information, but it is the position we take because it is so much easier to turn to your denominations position on any subject or ask your Pastor who will, 95% of the time, give you the denominational take on any given subject. The body of Christ is great at finding answers to tough questions by asking others with their same viewpoint but is woefully lacking in searching the truth within God's Word. Today's born-again Christians are just as carnal, that is "fleshly", as the Corinthians were because they do the same things the Corinthians did. They search out the proof that their viewpoint is correct and the opposing viewpoint is not within the people who see things as they do rather than turning to the Scriptures and finding their proof there as the Holy Spirit guides them. I guess some things never change.

Yours in Christ, Wayne

Edited March 7, 2007 by Phil.2:12

[Thaddaeus]

Mutzrain,

Oh I see. The way you are interpreting being born of water is

[TomPJr]

Say a person does get saved. For a few years, they go around to people talking about Jesus and the Gospel. Suddenly, they think their salvation is permanent, so for the rest of their life, they drink, say the lords name in vain, steal from people, break the law, buy drugs, etc.. Is this person still saved?

If you look at Judas, Jesus chose him to be one of his followers. Did Judas go to heaven? If he did, then OSAS is true. Keep in mind, though, that Jesus called Judas a 'devil'. I beleive this means that Judas didn't go to heaven because of his betrayal, therefore proving that OSAS is false. You can backslide.

[TomPJr]

I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY?

As this debate goes round and round, I thought I'd throw in a little thought.

I would really like to believe in once saved always saved, however I can't see it in scripture when all things are considered.

here's a little picture on how I see it....

The bible describes the Christian walk as a race, and it is mentioned that "narrow is the path that leads to heaven, and broad and wide is the path that leads to destruction".....It also talks about how the wide road is easy and the narrow road is hard...

I kind of see our Christian walk like being on a very steap mountain or cliff, and Jesus is at the top. He threw down a rope that reaches all the way down to the bottom, and said grab ahold and I will pull you up. He says I will never let go.

All we have to do is hold on....we can't make it up the steep incline alone. Many people, however, will let go of the rope for various reasons, and they will fall down. It seems that the higher we get when we let go the harder we fall too. The good thing is that the rope that Jesus threw down is very long, and still reaches the bottom, and is there for us to grab a hold of again if we fall. All we have to do is hold on. We do have the choice to let go though. Jesus does not tie the rope around us, that is up to us. If we let go of him we will fall, and if we don't grab back ahold then there is no way to make it up the mountain.

In the same sense....we must hold on to Jesus, we must stay close to him, and continually be progressing in our walk.

The free gift of salvation is the rope. It is our life line, but we have to grab it and hold on. we still have the choice to let go.

[Phil.2:12]

Phil.2:12

I now know the Scriptural position is that you really can loose your salvation (think Adam in the Garden), but it is really hard to acomplish such a feat.

Welcome to the board, Phil. I would be interested in what "Scriptural position" brought you out of Calvinism's OSAS position and into what you believe today.

Hi Horizoneast, and thanks for the welcome.

The "Scriptural position" that taught me God's perspective on OSAS runs throughout the whole Bible. God actually used the teaching method described in Isaiah 28:9-11. BTW, verse 11 is describing the phenomenon of the unknown tongue and can be further enlightened by Zechariah 3:9.

Briefly put, the Holy Spirit first led me to the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation 3. He directed me to the letter to the church at Sardis, particularly verse 5, where Jesus clearly states that for those who overcome, He will not blot out their name from the Book of Life. Now this letter to Sardis was written to a church full of Born-Again Christians. This was not a church for lost souls, such as the pagan temples all around Sardis. The Holy Spirit then showed me that you cannot blot out a name that had never been written, so these names (which were in danger of being blotted out) actually were in the Lamb's Book of Life, which says that they really had accepted Jesus as Savior at some point in thier life.

To confirm this, the Holy Spirit took me to Exodus 32:32-33 where Moses is pleading with God for the spiritual lives of the Israelites who had been worshipping a golden calf they demanded Aaron make for them. If God would not, or could not, forgive His chosen people, then Moses wanted his name blotted out instead, allowing the chosen people of God to continue. This is a type and shadow of exactly what would happen to Jesus many centuries later. God refused Moses' request and said that whoever had sinned against Him, He would blot out that name. Again, you cannot blot out a name that has not already been written down. So yet another example that God has the power to blot out names from His Book of Life.

Finally, the Holy Spirit took me to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Paul is exhorting the Corinthians to run a good race, but always be mindful of the fleshly state of maturity, which could lead to their ruin. In verse 27, Paul states that he is always mindful of his flesh and constantly fights it lest he finds at the end of the race, that he has lost the race and the prize set before him is lost. The Holy Spirit showed me that Paul was definitely afraid of losing the salvation he sought if he did not keep his fleshly man under subjection so that his spirit man could flourish. This was an early letter of Paul's, before His theology had been fully formed by the Holy Spirit. However, in Paul's last letter (2 Timothy) he states to Timothy "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness". Gone are the doubts expressed in 1 Corinthians, now Paul knows that Heaven awaits him as he patiently waits for the death the Romans will impose on him.

Scripture says in 2 Corinthians 13:1 that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. In other words, when you have two or three witnesses telling you that something in Scripture is true, then it is true. We have Jesus in Revelation 3 as our first witness, Moses in Exodus as our second witness, and Paul in 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy as our third witness. Therefore, the fact that a name can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life is established, just as Jesus told us in Revelation 3. Thus one can definitely loose the salvation they gained when they accepted Jesus as their Savior, but it is a hard thing to do since God has an extremely dim view of His children willingly leaving His family.

One example (out of many) of someone who could willingly throw away their salvation would be if a young Christian male or female were to fall in love with someone of the Muslim faith. In order to convert to Islam, the Christian must denounce Jesus in the mosque and state that all ties to Jesus are severed, so that they can now freely worship Allah. And then the Holy Spirit took me to the letter to the Hebrews, Chapters 6 and 10, especially 10:29. Here the Holy Spirit revealed to me just what the unpardonable sin that Jesus talked about in Mark 3:28-29 consisted of. When we willingly tread underfoot the precious blood of Jesus, counting this holy blood an unholy thing (denouncing Jesus and all ties to Him in a mosque so that you will serve no god but Allah), we have just committed the unpardonable sin that Jesus told us would never be forgiven either in this world or the one to come (Mark 3:29).

I could go on, but this post is becoming lengthy so I'll leave it right here. Needless to say, it took the Holy Spirit to shake me from my OSAS roots, for they were very deep. However, the only correct view, in my humble opinion, is the Scriptural view as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Phil.2:12

[Mutzrein]

Mutzrain,

Oh I see. The way you are interpreting being born of water is