Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[st. Worm]

These are not changing the OT Law. For the most part these are giving explanations of just what the Law really means. For example the commandment against adultery is not fulfilled simply by not committing physical adultery. It is broken just by lusting and commiting adultery in the heart. Same for the commandment not to murder. We break it not only by physically killing our brother but also by hateful anger.

Jesus is truly explaining the real standards of the law and why it is we cannot possibly keep them. You don't understand that and you pastor a church?

sw

That makes no sense. Why would Christ bring us a law and command us to follow it if it was impossible to keep?

Read them again. He he says, "Before of old it was said". Then he says, "But I say unto you". He changed it. Before under the Old Law people were stoned for their sins. People had to offer animal sacrifices. There were many feasts that were commanded to keep, they had to go to Jerusalem every year, and many, many other things that were required of them. We are now still commaned to follow the Law of Christ but we have mercy and forgiveness when sin is committed as long as were are repenting.

Remember, a sin is a transgression of the law. If I sin then I break a one of Christ's laws. Christ's laws are all the commandments listed from Matthew to Revelation and here are just a few of them -

Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Even though we are Christians we are still susceptible to the flesh and it's lusts. We are still susceptible to temptations of sin. That is where the Godhead comes in to help us to fight those urges to sin and obey the gospel. If we as Christians don't care about sins or don't try to find out what sin there is still in my life I will lose my salvation because there is no sin allowed in Heaven.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Our labour is obeying the Law Of Christ.

Jeff Hernandez

Church Of Christ

No offense but I don't have time to provide an online Bible study for you but just as an example you cite Romans 1:29-32. Well let me clue you in, that passage is talking about you, me and all humanity. This passage is God's indictment of all mankind. This is the bad news that Paul gives before presenting the good news about the gospel that is the only remedy for sinful man. I really think you believe the Bible. Unfortunately you don't appear to understand it.

The law Jesus is addressing is the same Law. While the judicial law and related punishments of Israel may be discontinued, the moral law remains. Same for the ceremonial laws including the sacrificial system. They were about to fulfilled at the cross itself and therefore are not relevant today. The Law is the Law. Nothing new was added in the NT. Jesus merely described what the Law really means and why the pharisaical view is the wrong one.

Of course Christians should care about sin. However we deal with it by confessing sin and turning to Christ in faith. This is not a one time event but a lifetime process. I think you have a very shallow view of sin and a very weak view of the Law. From my prior post of which you did not bother to address, you obviously do not grasp just what a sinner you still are. You think you can shake that off by the law or behavior modification but in reality the Law's endless demands continue to condemn you and you don't even seem to know it. I have no idea where you got your education in theological studies, which apparently is Campbellite in nature, but you should consider seeking a refund immediately.

While there is a third use of the law as a guide for the Christian, the law has no bearing on our salvation other than to condemn us. Salvation is provided through the gospel and received by faith ALONE, which I know most C of C's do not believe since I have been down this dusty road with them before.

blessings,

sw

[Openly Curious]

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete. When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation. In other words, when I reject the certainty of Christ I am relying on the Law and we all know that the Law can only condemn us when we rely on it.

sw

Hello st.worm,

I agree that our salvation is complete based on the following scriptures.

Colossians 2:10--"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principalites and power."

Colossians 4:12--"Epaphras, who is one of you, a sevant of Christ saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye might stand perfect and complete in all the will of God."

I think our salvation is complete 100% but I think what is not complete yet is our walk with the Lord for it has to be walked out every single day until we go home to be with the Lord. I don't know what all is up ahead from day to day in my walk with the Lord that might cause me to "err" from salvation or cast my faith aside various temptations etc., that can possibly come in my life. I don't think my self personally to have obtain to where that I couldn't fall myself. Things can hinder our walk with the Lord wouldn't you agree?

We are told in Hebrews to put away every weight and sin that so doth easily beset us so that we may run the race with patience. Things come and set us back in our "walks" but not our salvation for in it we are complete in Christ because the blood had deemed already made the righteouness of God. We are to "add" things unto our faith that we started out with in order to help us not to "fail" and in order that the knowledge of God will contiunue to grow within out lives according to the scriptures in

2 Peter 1:5-11 (hope you read).

According to James 1:2-4

we are to let patience have her perfect work in our trials and tribulations that come in our lives so we will be made perfect entire and wanting nothing. In other words we have to "endure" to the end. So my thoughts are that my salvation is 100% complete in Christ. But my walk is not yet complete and is still being perfected through the trials and tribulations of this life that is perfecting my faith. The apostle Paul said that those things were only light affliction compared to the glory to come and shall be revealed. I have to fight the good fight of faith and stand when I've done all I could do so that my faith will come out in the end purified as pure gold when I stand before Him.

OC

[HAZARD]

We can say with all assurance that any calling and election of God is based upon the free moral agency of those called and chosen. God offers the same mercies and blessings to all alike, but all do not accept these benefits alike, therefore there naturally are different consequences. The Bible is very clear that man looks on the outward appearances and God looks on the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; Isa. 55:8, 9). It teaches that God's ways are always righteous (Ps. 145:17). God is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11; James 2:9). God's will is for all to be saved (1 Tim. 2L4, 5; 2 Pet. 3:9).

God's will and ways are made plain in His Word and all who conform to them are loved on an equal basis according to the degree of obedience. This is how God will be able to judge all men, according to His ways (Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 18:30; 33:20; Hosea 12:2; Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; 2 Tim. 4:4; 2 Cor. 10:9, 10; 1 Cor. 3:11-15). God repeatedly declares that He demands wholehearted service from every man (Deut. 11:13; Josh. 22:5 1 Sam. 12:20, 24; Matt. 22:37). God constantly searches the hearts of men and deals with them in order to bring them to righteousness (Psalms 139:23; Jer. 11:20; 17:9, 10; 20:12; Heb. 4:12; Job 33:14-30). Therefore, God does not chjoosesome to be saved and oithers to be lost and He is not responsible for those who will be lost. There are no direct statements of God choosing to save certain individuals contrary to their own will, as some teach from the following Scriptures: "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). The ones who rejected the Godpel on this occasion were the Jews, God's own elect who were first offered the gospel, thus proving that after men are chosen to be saved they can reject truth and be lost (Acts 13:45-49). That the Jew's were the elect of God and were first chosen to carry the gospel is one of the most clearly stated facts in Scripture (Rom. 1:16; 3:1-6; 9:4, 5; Matt. 10:5; 15:21-28; 21:33-46; John 1:11). Israel rejected the gospel and even killed their own Messiah. They murdered the saints and hardened themselves against God until it was no wonder Paul waxed bold and said, "It was necessary that the Word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46). Paul continued by saying that God had called him to bring the light of the gospel to the Gentiles and unot the ends of the Earth, showing that it is God's purpose to save ALL that believe in all natiuons (Acts. 10:34, 35). When the Gentiles heard this, many of them were glad and believed the gospel and glorified the word of the Lord. This is why they were ordained to eternal life.

The doctrin of calling and election has been surrounded with many traditional theories and mysteries down through the centuries, but there is no excuse for this, as the term simply means chosen. Any person or group of persons selected or chosen of God for any particular purpose is the elect of God. Christ is called God's elect (Isa. 42:1; 1 Pet. 2:6). A particular woman in a local church is called an "elect lady" (2 John 1, 13). Israel as a nation is spoken of as the elect of God (Isa. 45:4; 65:9, 22; Matt. 24:22-31; Mark 13:20-27; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 11;7, 28). The church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, is called the elect of God (Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4; Titus 1:1).

ANGELS are also called the ELECT of God (1 Timothy 5:21).

Anyone called to be saved and chosen for any particular mission is elected of God for that work (Acts 15:7; John 6:70; 13:18; 15:16; Acts 1;2; 9:15). Every person saved is the elect or chosen of God to salvation (John 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:13; James 2:5; Rev. 17:14).

There are no concrete examples of God saving some men and damning others solely because of His own choice. It is true that no man can be saved except God deals with him (John 6:37, 44) and that God's people are called His own posession (Eph. 1:14), but this does not mean that God does not deal with all men, or that all men who desire cannot become the people of God, the repentant thief being one example which comes to mind. The Holy Spirit is faithful to deal with all men as they hear the gospel (Rom. 10:9-17; John 16:7-15). The Bible speaks of Christ being the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9). No man has been saved or has been forced to stay saved against his will. Because men are born of God's will and not their own (John 1:13) is no proof that they are saved only because of God's will. It simply means that salvation has not been provided by the will of man, but it is also true that God cannot and will not save one man if he himself does not will it (John 3:16-20; 22:17; 1 Tim. 4:10; Mark 16:15, 16). It is God's will to save all, but all are not saved, so it must also take the will of man in accepting the gospel for him to be saved. All of God's blessings are conditional and the very nature of the case proves that God does not determin beforehand th cats of free moral agents.

The blessings of God upon every person is conditioned upon personal faith and conformity to the gospel, not upon predetermined choices of God. Meeting gospel conditions such as repenting and faith are not works that purchase salvation but necessary requirements to be save if one wnats the salvation purchased by the blood of Christ. If God were to seek to save and keep rebels contrary to their wills He would break His own laws and fail to carry out His own plan. God could not be guilty of such unlawful dealings, so if men are finally lost it is not because God has failed, His plan failed, the sacrifice of Christ has failed, or that God did not have power to keep them contrary to His plan. If God's promises and covenants were made on the condition that man must fulfill righteousness, then God cannot do otherwise than to cutt off all who refuse to conform to His demands. If God failed to hold men to the terms of the contracts He has made with them, He would be a liar and all men with free wills would loose respect for Him.

The following are a few of the many passages that plainly teach that God's dealings have always been on the condition of obedience (Ex. 15:26; 19:5, 6; 22:23, 24; 23:30-33; 32:33; Lev. 26:3-46; Deut. 7:12-24; 8:10-20; 11:13-31; 28:1-68; 29:9-28; 30:1-20; Josh. 23:16; 24:20; 1 Sam. 12:14, 15, 24; 1 Kings 3:12; 9:3-9; 11:38, 39; 2 Kings 17:7-23; 21:7, 8; Isa. 1:19, 20; Col. 1:23; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Heb. 3:6, 12-14; 4:11; 6:4-12; Heb. 10:26-39; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; John 15:1-6; etc.)

Satan, demons, angels, not one were created sinful. All things were created perfect and sinless in the beginning of their creation. Concerning Lucifer, it is stated in Ezek. 28:11-17, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Concerning the angels that fell, it stated that they "sinned" and "left their first estate" (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7). Concerning demons, it is also clear that they sinned, for they already know their punishment for what they have done (Matt. 8:29; Luke 8:31). Not one Scripture says that God ever created anything sinful or imperfect. In Eccl. 3:11 we read, "He made everything beautiful in his time" and anything contrary to this idea would be out of harmony with God. To say God created angels, demons, and even man knowing they would sin would make God the author of sin and death.

Adam and Eve were created in a perfect and sinless state. They never had the ten commandments. They had everything at their feet. God allowed Satan, who was by then an already fallen being to tempt them to see if they would remain true to Him. Had they not fallen by temptation and sinned they would not have died, but would have continued to live on the Earth and all things would to this day have remained as God had created and planned things to be. The way God will finally restore all things as they were before the fall.

God is not the author of sin or death. Doubt concerning God's Word (Gen. 3:1), was raised by the serpent, a doubt or question whether God would permit man to eat of every tree of the garden. Thus satans first utterance to man in Scripture shows opposition to the Word of God. Satan's opposition to the Bible accounts for our having so many false theories of the Word of God. Any theory that teaches that God does not mean what He says and that adds to, misrepresents, takes from, or changes in any form what is plainly written is from Satan.

The appeal of Satan to man that he would become like God was a strong one. This desire in itself is no sin. It is a high ideal, and every Christian should strive to be like God, but in the way demonstrated by Jesus Christ, not the selfish, sinful way demonstrated by Lucifer and Adam and Eve.

When Eve "saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise" she was tempted to sin. Paul tells us in 1 Tim. 2:13-15 that Adam was not decieved, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression. In 2 Cor. 11;3 we read of Eve being beguiled by the serpent. This appeal consists of three main lines of temptations, the only three with which man has to deal.

John speaks of them as "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:15-17). These are the three lines of temptation Christ went through in the wilderness and OVERCAME, as recorded in Matt. 4:1-11. If man overcomes these three lines of temptations he is an overcomer of Satan, the flesh, and the world. These three lines of temptations thus expressed in Gen. 3:6 are:

1. "Good for food," or "the lust of the flesh." In the temptation of Christ it was, "command that these stones be made bread"; that is, you are hungry, make yourself some bread so you may live. The answer of Jesus, the second Adam, was, "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,"

2. "Pleasent to the eyes," or "the lust of the eyes." In the temptation of Christ it was, "cast thyself down. . . . He shall give his angels chargeconcerning thee:, that is, you have need of personal protection, use your power to preserve your bodily perfection and beauty. Christ answered, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Jesus's body was controlled and yielded to God for the bodily needs of others.

3. "A tree to be desired to make one wise," or "the pride of life." This is expressed in the temptation of Christ thus: "All things [the worldly kingdoms and the glory of them] will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me," That is, act wise and yield your spirit to me as did Adam, and be rewarded. Christ answered, "Get thee hence, Satan. . . . Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"; that is, true wisdom and God-likeness is to yield my whole spirit to God for the exaltation of others, not for my own personal gain of glory.

Adam and Eve went through the same routine of temptation until actual sin was committed as is true with many men today. James said, "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Then when lust hath concieved, it bring forth sin: and sin, when it is finoished, bring forth death" (James 1:13-16).

Sin is not sin until lust hath concieved and the law is broken. Any temptation short of breaking to law is not sin. Any created faculty exercised along any line is perfectly sinless and legitimate within the bounds of the law. It is only in exercising these faculties in breaking the law that sin is committed. For example, it was perfectly sinless and legitimate for Adam and Eve to eat, but it was in eating what was forbidden by the law of God that sin was commited.

Judgement always follows failure and sin in every dispensation. In this one, God's will had been made known and the penalty for disobedience revealed before man sinned. To be just, it was necessary for God to keep His word and teach the new free moral agents that He was just and righteous in all His dealings and in the exercise of government and that His word was true and was to be taken literally and obeyed. To be lenient would have caused others to rebel and then expect more and more leniency. If God had started a program like this there would have been no end to rebellion. It never could have been put down without God's showing Himself to be a respector of persons. Sin had to be judged and men taught that it does not pay to rebell against God and do those things that are not for the best good of his being and for the highest good of the universe and the societies therein.

[st. Worm]

We can say with all assurance that any calling and election of God is based upon the free moral agency of those called and chosen. God offers the same mercies and blessings to all alike, but all do not accept these benefits alike, therefore there naturally are different consequences. The Bible is very clear that man looks on the outward appearances and God looks on the heart (1 Sam. 16:7; Isa. 55:8, 9). It teaches that God's ways are always righteous (Ps. 145:17). God is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11; James 2:9). God's will is for all to be saved (1 Tim. 2L4, 5; 2 Pet. 3:9).

God's will and ways are made plain in His Word and all who conform to them are loved on an equal basis according to the degree of obedience. This is how God will be able to judge all men, according to His ways (Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 18:30; 33:20; Hosea 12:2; Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; 2 Tim. 4:4; 2 Cor. 10:9, 10; 1 Cor. 3:11-15). God repeatedly declares that He demands wholehearted service from every man (Deut. 11:13; Josh. 22:5 1 Sam. 12:20, 24; Matt. 22:37). God constantly searches the hearts of men and deals with them in order to bring them to righteousness (Psalms 139:23; Jer. 11:20; 17:9, 10; 20:12; Heb. 4:12; Job 33:14-30). Therefore, God does not chjoosesome to be saved and oithers to be lost and He is not responsible for those who will be lost. There are no direct statements of God choosing to save certain individuals contrary to their own will, as some teach from the following Scriptures: "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). The ones who rejected the Godpel on this occasion were the Jews, God's own elect who were first offered the gospel, thus proving that after men are chosen to be saved they can reject truth and be lost (Acts 13:45-49). That the Jew's were the elect of God and were first chosen to carry the gospel is one of the most clearly stated facts in Scripture (Rom. 1:16; 3:1-6; 9:4, 5; Matt. 10:5; 15:21-28; 21:33-46; John 1:11). Israel rejected the gospel and even killed their own Messiah. They murdered the saints and hardened themselves against God until it was no wonder Paul waxed bold and said, "It was necessary that the Word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46). Paul continued by saying that God had called him to bring the light of the gospel to the Gentiles and unot the ends of the Earth, showing that it is God's purpose to save ALL that believe in all natiuons (Acts. 10:34, 35). When the Gentiles heard this, many of them were glad and believed the gospel and glorified the word of the Lord. This is why they were ordained to eternal life.

The doctrin of calling and election has been surrounded with many traditional theories and mysteries down through the centuries, but there is no excuse for this, as the term simply means chosen. Any person or group of persons selected or chosen of God for any particular purpose is the elect of God. Christ is called God's elect (Isa. 42:1; 1 Pet. 2:6). A particular woman in a local church is called an "elect lady" (2 John 1, 13). Israel as a nation is spoken of as the elect of God (Isa. 45:4; 65:9, 22; Matt. 24:22-31; Mark 13:20-27; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 11;7, 28). The church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, is called the elect of God (Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4; Titus 1:1).

ANGELS are also called the ELECT of God (1 Timothy 5:21).

Anyone called to be saved and chosen for any particular mission is elected of God for that work (Acts 15:7; John 6:70; 13:18; 15:16; Acts 1;2; 9:15). Every person saved is the elect or chosen of God to salvation (John 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:13; James 2:5; Rev. 17:14).

There are no concrete examples of God saving some men and damning others solely because of His own choice. It is true that no man can be saved except God deals with him (John 6:37, 44) and that God's people are called His own posession (Eph. 1:14), but this does not mean that God does not deal with all men, or that all men who desire cannot become the people of God, the repentant thief being one example which comes to mind. The Holy Spirit is faithful to deal with all men as they hear the gospel (Rom. 10:9-17; John 16:7-15). The Bible speaks of Christ being the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9). No man has been saved or has been forced to stay saved against his will. Because men are born of God's will and not their own (John 1:13) is no proof that they are saved only because of God's will. It simply means that salvation has not been provided by the will of man, but it is also true that God cannot and will not save one man if he himself does not will it (John 3:16-20; 22:17; 1 Tim. 4:10; Mark 16:15, 16). It is God's will to save all, but all are not saved, so it must also take the will of man in accepting the gospel for him to be saved. All of God's blessings are conditional and the very nature of the case proves that God does not determin beforehand th cats of free moral agents.

The blessings of God upon every person is conditioned upon personal faith and conformity to the gospel, not upon predetermined choices of God. Meeting gospel conditions such as repenting and faith are not works that purchase salvation but necessary requirements to be save if one wnats the salvation purchased by the blood of Christ. If God were to seek to save and keep rebels contrary to their wills He would break His own laws and fail to carry out His own plan. God could not be guilty of such unlawful dealings, so if men are finally lost it is not because God has failed, His plan failed, the sacrifice of Christ has failed, or that God did not have power to keep them contrary to His plan. If God's promises and covenants were made on the condition that man must fulfill righteousness, then God cannot do otherwise than to cutt off all who refuse to conform to His demands. If God failed to hold men to the terms of the contracts He has made with them, He would be a liar and all men with free wills would loose respect for Him.

The following are a few of the many passages that plainly teach that God's dealings have always been on the condition of obedience (Ex. 15:26; 19:5, 6; 22:23, 24; 23:30-33; 32:33; Lev. 26:3-46; Deut. 7:12-24; 8:10-20; 11:13-31; 28:1-68; 29:9-28; 30:1-20; Josh. 23:16; 24:20; 1 Sam. 12:14, 15, 24; 1 Kings 3:12; 9:3-9; 11:38, 39; 2 Kings 17:7-23; 21:7, 8; Isa. 1:19, 20; Col. 1:23; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Heb. 3:6, 12-14; 4:11; 6:4-12; Heb. 10:26-39; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; John 15:1-6; etc.)

Satan, demons, angels, not one were created sinful. All things were created perfect and sinless in the beginning of their creation. Concerning Lucifer, it is stated in Ezek. 28:11-17, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Concerning the angels that fell, it stated that they "sinned" and "left their first estate" (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7). Concerning demons, it is also clear that they sinned, for they already know their punishment for what they have done (Matt. 8:29; Luke 8:31). Not one Scripture says that God ever created anything sinful or imperfect. In Eccl. 3:11 we read, "He made everything beautiful in his time" and anything contrary to this idea would be out of harmony with God. To say God created angels, demons, and even man knowing they would sin would make God the author of sin and death.

Adam and Eve were created in a perfect and sinless state. They never had the ten commandments. They had everything at their feet. God allowed Satan, who was by then an already fallen being to tempt them to see if they would remain true to Him. Had they not fallen by temptation and sinned they would not have died, but would have continued to live on the Earth and all things would to this day have remained as God had created and planned things to be. The way God will finally restore all things as they were before the fall.

God is not the author of sin or death. Doubt concerning God's Word (Gen. 3:1), was raised by the serpent, a doubt or question whether God would permit man to eat of every tree of the garden. Thus satans first utterance to man in Scripture shows opposition to the Word of God. Satan's opposition to the Bible accounts for our having so many false theories of the Word of God. Any theory that teaches that God does not mean what He says and that adds to, misrepresents, takes from, or changes in any form what is plainly written is from Satan.

The appeal of Satan to man that he would become like God was a strong one. This desire in itself is no sin. It is a high ideal, and every Christian should strive to be like God, but in the way demonstrated by Jesus Christ, not the selfish, sinful way demonstrated by Lucifer and Adam and Eve.

When Eve "saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise" she was tempted to sin. Paul tells us in 1 Tim. 2:13-15 that Adam was not decieved, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression. In 2 Cor. 11;3 we read of Eve being beguiled by the serpent. This appeal consists of three main lines of temptations, the only three with which man has to deal.

John speaks of them as "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:15-17). These are the three lines of temptation Christ went through in the wilderness and OVERCAME, as recorded in Matt. 4:1-11. If man overcomes these three lines of temptations he is an overcomer of Satan, the flesh, and the world. These three lines of temptations thus expressed in Gen. 3:6 are:

1. "Good for food," or "the lust of the flesh." In the temptation of Christ it was, "command that these stones be made bread"; that is, you are hungry, make yourself some bread so you may live. The answer of Jesus, the second Adam, was, "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,"

2. "Pleasent to the eyes," or "the lust of the eyes." In the temptation of Christ it was, "cast thyself down. . . . He shall give his angels chargeconcerning thee:, that is, you have need of personal protection, use your power to preserve your bodily perfection and beauty. Christ answered, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Jesus's body was controlled and yielded to God for the bodily needs of others.

3. "A tree to be desired to make one wise," or "the pride of life." This is expressed in the temptation of Christ thus: "All things [the worldly kingdoms and the glory of them] will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me," That is, act wise and yield your spirit to me as did Adam, and be rewarded. Christ answered, "Get thee hence, Satan. . . . Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"; that is, true wisdom and God-likeness is to yield my whole spirit to God for the exaltation of others, not for my own personal gain of glory.

Adam and Eve went through the same routine of temptation until actual sin was committed as is true with many men today. James said, "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Then when lust hath concieved, it bring forth sin: and sin, when it is finoished, bring forth death" (James 1:13-16).

Sin is not sin until lust hath concieved and the law is broken. Any temptation short of breaking to law is not sin. Any created faculty exercised along any line is perfectly sinless and legitimate within the bounds of the law. It is only in exercising these faculties in breaking the law that sin is committed. For example, it was perfectly sinless and legitimate for Adam and Eve to eat, but it was in eating what was forbidden by the law of God that sin was commited.

Judgement always follows failure and sin in every dispensation. In this one, God's will had been made known and the penalty for disobedience revealed before man sinned. To be just, it was necessary for God to keep His word and teach the new free moral agents that He was just and righteous in all His dealings and in the exercise of government and that His word was true and was to be taken literally and obeyed. To be lenient would have caused others to rebel and then expect more and more leniency. If God had started a program like this there would have been no end to rebellion. It never could have been put down without God's showing Himself to be a respector of persons. Sin had to be judged and men taught that it does not pay to rebell against God and do those things that are not for the best good of his being and for the highest good of the universe and the societies therein.

"We can say with all assurance that any calling and election of God is based upon the free moral agency of those called and chosen."

The above statement which you open with is clearly open theism. If true it can only mean that man and not God is sovereign over the creation. May God help us if it is true. Of course it is not true because election itself is a function of God's mercy and grace. Dead men, and that is what we are because of sin, do not make decisions to elect themselves just as dead men cannot save themselves. It is God's election, not man's. It is God who justifies the ungodly, not man. It is God in the form of Jesus who came for sinners, not men, and it is God through the work of the Holy Spirit that regenerates dead men to new life.

"Free moral agency" of course was declared a heresy throughout the history of the church from the time of Pelegius. It is a terrible heresy because it declares that man is not really the sinner God says he is and not really in need of God's grace. In this scheme, salvation comes through man's will and not God's. How much worse can it get?

sw

[Thaddaeus]

St Worm,

Also, with regard to other aspects of your post, I am not saying we can discard our faith and maintain our salvation. I agree if we have no faith in Christ we have no salvation. But trusting in our ability to keep the Law, now that is another matter entirely.

That is the point on which you err in your understanding of what constitutes the salvation of ones soul.

It is not trusting in our abilities. It is that we need Christ and all the help we can get to heal our infirmities. To assist in overcoming the flesh so that we can live in the spirit. That is a constant war, a war ONLY believers are engaged in. Satan is after your soul as much as God. Both ply your will but it is ONLY YOU that can make the choice. Neither God nor Satan has the power to command your will, only you do. For that you will be held accountable.

We have confession, repentance, the Church, the sacraments, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as medicines to help us overcome our weaknessess. Christ is our mediator, we can rely on a host of others to support and pray and work for our salvation. So, by sitting idling by and thinking all this happens as a lottery of sorts is unscriptural and not reality either.

You have the erroneous assumption that if it is not ALL God, then it must be all man, It is actually neither but both. That is the whole point of God creating us in the first place. A mutual relationship on trust, belief, faith, and a willingness, a desire to be in His presence. Having that, God then is willing and able to work with us. We are never alone. But if we do not desire to be with Him, we will be spiritually alone.

Cardcaptor has also pointed our some very important concepts regarding the Sermon on the Mount. The NT 10 commandments. They are far more restrictive because they adhere to the spirit of the law, not just the letter.

Christ came not to abolish the law, but to establish it. Rom 3:31.

[st. Worm]

St Worm,

Also, with regard to other aspects of your post, I am not saying we can discard our faith and maintain our salvation. I agree if we have no faith in Christ we have no salvation. But trusting in our ability to keep the Law, now that is another matter entirely.

That is the point on which you err in your understanding of what constitutes the salvation of ones soul.

It is not trusting in our abilities. It is that we need Christ and all the help we can get to heal our infirmities. To assist in overcoming the flesh so that we can live in the spirit. That is a constant war, a war ONLY believers are engaged in. Satan is after your soul as much as God. Both ply your will but it is ONLY YOU that can make the choice. Neither God nor Satan has the power to command your will, only you do. For that you will be held accountable.

We have confession, repentance, the Church, the sacraments, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as medicines to help us overcome our weaknessess. Christ is our mediator, we can rely on a host of others to support and pray and work for our salvation. So, by sitting idling by and thinking all this happens as a lottery of sorts is unscriptural and not reality either.

You have the erroneous assumption that if it is not ALL God, then it must be all man, It is actually neither but both. That is the whole point of God creating us in the first place. A mutual relationship on trust, belief, faith, and a willingness, a desire to be in His presence. Having that, God then is willing and able to work with us. We are never alone. But if we do not desire to be with Him, we will be spiritually alone.

Cardcaptor has also pointed our some very important concepts regarding the Sermon on the Mount. The NT 10 commandments. They are far more restrictive because they adhere to the spirit of the law, not just the letter.

Christ came not to abolish the law, but to establish it. Rom 3:31.

Jesus is truly explaining the real standards of the law and why it is we cannot possibly keep them. You don't understand that and you pastor a church?

[Thaddaeus]

St Worm,

I do believe the board is being spammed by the Church of Christ people, Thaddaeus, Cardcaptor, and Hazard. All of the C of C talking points are here. When do you get to the part about inviting me to a "Bible study" guys?

Just so you know, I am not a C of C people. I cannot speak for the others however. I am Orthodox and the view that I presented has been the belief and practice of the Church since the Apostles. It can be followed throughout history in every age.

A good Bible study would greatly help you in my humble opinion.

[st. Worm]

No offense but I don't have time to provide an online Bible study for you but just as an example you cite Romans 1:29-32. Well let me clue you in, that passage is talking about you, me and all humanity. This passage is God's indictment of all mankind. This is the bad news that Paul gives before presenting the good news about the gospel that is the only remedy for sinful man. I really think you believe the Bible. Unfortunately you don't appear to understand it.

You are correct in that it is talking of all humanity, but what I think you fail to realize is that these things still apply to all of mankind even after they become Christians. I do understand the bible, I think that you only apply parts of it to yourself and not all of it. You shield yourself behind "Faith" and completely ignore the scriptures that speak of our obedience being just as important to God.

The law Jesus is addressing is the same Law. While the judicial law and related punishments of Israel may be discontinued, the moral law remains. Same for the ceremonial laws including the sacrificial system. They were about to fulfilled at the cross itself and therefore are not relevant today. The Law is the Law. Nothing new was added in the NT. Jesus merely described what the Law really means and why the pharisaical view is the wrong one.

Of course Christians should care about sin. However we deal with it by confessing sin and turning to Christ in faith. This is not a one time event but a lifetime process.

I believe this and have stated it many, many times.

I think you have a very shallow view of sin and a very weak view of the Law.

I have a very serious and deep view of sin. That is why I keep saying that we have a law that needs to be obeys because trangression of that law is what constitutes sin. Without a law there is no sin. And if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins. This is a daily activity after rebirth.

From my prior post of which you did not bother to address, you obviously do not grasp just what a sinner you still are.

I have stated many times before, which people seem to ignore, that we all do sin every day. But in God's eyes there are tow different kinds of sinners. Those who repent of their sins and those who choose to live in their sins. There are Christians that also do both.

You think you can shake that off by the law or behavior modification but in reality the Law's endless demands continue to condemn you and you don't even seem to know it.

The law was created to expose sin, nothing more and nothing less. I know that it condemns me. Where many people fail to understand is that because of this condemning law we need to repent and continue to repent even after becoming a Christian.

Here is also an example of the work we do AFTER becoming a Christian. This is also part of the Law Of Christ.

Ephesians 4:22-30 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I have also stated this many times that the law does NOT save us in any manner. We are commanded to live by the law as long as we walk this earth. We are saved by faith AND commanded to live by the law. But if we fail to live by the law even as Christians we will not make it to Heaven.

I have no idea where you got your education in theological studies, which apparently is Campbellite in nature, but you should consider seeking a refund immediately.

I don't follow after any man. I study my bible myself. I believe and try to the best of my ability to follow Christ by obeying his words through faith.

I believe and follow scriptures like this one -

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ's words entail ALL of the New Testement, not just the ones that have the word "Faith" in them.

While there is a third use of the law as a guide for the Christian, the law has no bearing on our salvation other than to condemn us.

This is exactly what I am trying to tell you. The law does NOT save us, it condemns us. So, if we do not keep the law we are condemned just as a sinner is. The law condemns us when we don't obey it. i.e. Not fleeing fornication will take a Christian to hell just as fast as it will as sinner.

As Christians we still have temptations of sins. Even Christ was tempted. If we give into the temptations to sin then we die, but if we choose not to give in then we are choosing rather to obey God and we shall live.

Salvation is provided through the gospel and received by faith ALONE, which I know most C of C's do not believe since I have been down this dusty road with them before.

This is wrong. You need to read your bible -

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is the only place in the bible you will find the words "faith" and "only" together and it says we are not justified by them.

Well at least I can thank you for being honest about your belief. You openly reject justification through faith in Christ alone and as Luther said this is the doctrine upon which the church stands or falls.

And you need to read your Bible cover to cover. The idea of the sacrifice of Christ being all sufficient as a propitiation for our sin is there for all to see. Your works are worthless in terms of what saves you. As St. Paul writes you have a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Sadly your salvation hangs in limbo because you have no idea just how many good works you must do to insure your salvation. Those who have the gospel can rest in Christ, assured of their destiny in Heaven. Those who rely on the Law for salvation remain under its curse.

sw

[st. Worm]

And you need to read your Bible cover to cover. The idea of the sacrifice of Christ being all sufficient as a propitiation for our sin is there for all to see. Your works are worthless in terms of what saves you. As St. Paul writes you have a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Sadly your salvation hangs in limbo because you have no idea just how many good works you must do to insure your salvation. Those who have the gospel can rest in Christ, assured of their destiny in Heaven. Those who rely on the Law for salvation remain under its curse.

sw

So does James' epistle belong in the Bible? or should it go with the other so-called false gospels?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The term "justified" in that verse is not in reference to ultimate salvation or justification in the eyes of God. Justified has more than one meaning. James is saying works justify or provide evidence of real faith. He cannot be saying works justify us before God here because that would be a biblical contradiction. This is another indication of why you need a real church and real teaching.

sw

[st. Worm]

The term "justified" in that verse is not in reference to ultimate salvation or justification in the eyes of God. Justified has more than one meaning. James is saying works justify or provide evidence of real faith. He cannot be saying works justify us before God here because that would be a biblical contradiction.

Whatever. James gives multiple examples of what he is talking about, and I don't see how you can draw any other conclusion other than the fact that salvation doesn't come by faith alone.

"Justified" comes from the same greek word EVERY TIME it appears in the NT. Who are you to define the word any different than the next greek scholar? seeing it has but one meaning, "to render just or innocent"?

The only way your argument stands is if you claim inspiration and say that Justification has a new definition suddenly.

This is another indication of why you need a real church and real teaching.

And of course you consider yourself or a handful of other individuals to be "real" teachers because they graduated from your favorite seminary.

It really is getting old that people are convinced they are right just because their "pastor's pastor" with the honorary degree told them so, and I am sick of this elitist doctrine, as I am sure the Lord has been for many centuries.

The Bible is no different than any other book in that, if a person cannot pick it up and read it for themselves, it is the most useless piece of trash.

The letters in the Bible are not addressed, "Paul, an apostle of God, to the clergy and highly educated degree holders at the church of corinth..." No, but they are addressed to the CHURCH.

The same rules of literary interpretation apply to the Bible as any other book regardless of the fact it is God breathed. You can figure out some words mean different things from context. The Bible was written over a very long period of time by different writers in different languages. If you think you can just pick it up and read it as if it were a 6th grade primer you are mistaken. You are simply not teachable and just want to use any reason to continue your anti-church rant. If you hate it so much why don't you try Buddhism or Islam?

sw