Families in Modern Chuches

[Candi770]

GOSPEL is the English word used to translate the Greek word for "good news." Christians use the word to designate the message and story of God's saving activity through the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of God's unique Son Jesus. Although "gospel" translates a Greek word from the New Testament, the concept of good news itself finds its roots in the Hebrew language of the Old Testament.

Bisar is the Hebrew verb which means "to proclaim good news." Unlike the English language, Hebrew is able to convey the subject of the proclamation in the verb's root; no direct object was needed with the verb bisar to make clear that the subject of an announcement was "good news." Originally, the word was used to describe the report of victory in battle (2 Sam. 4:10).

2 Sam. 4:10 When one told me, saying, Behold, Saul is dead, thinking to have brought good tidings, I took hold of him, and slew him in Ziklag, who thought that I would have given him a reward for his tidings:

and your point is....?

My point is that when I say, "the gospel has changed" I mean that it is no longger a tangible thing. That it is spiritual and that that makes it harder to understand. Thus we have the following verses:

1 Cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Matthew 13:

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Milk is for spiriitual babes in Christ, young and old-not characterized by age only.

The parable of the sower is concerning the condition of the heart and how the seed (word of God) makes entrance. That pertains to all of us, not only children.

[Smalcald]

They need both.

Now I think parents can do some instruction at home in learning the scriptures, doctrines etc., but I don't think it is a problem for kids to go to a children's worship for part of the worship. We usually send them downstairs after the readings and before the sermon. They return prior to communion. But the fact is the quality of congregational Sunday school and children

[LadyRaven]

So you are saying what my church is engaging in is "Totally unbiblical. Sinful.. Worldly." Curious. May I have those Scriptures without the attitude, of course.

I'm sure a few people thought I sounded a tad self righteous before and it wasnt meant that way, this is a pet issue of mine, something I feel very strongly about and someone had just used humanistic reasoning to tell me it was a sin. I suspect my zeal was stretched the wrong way and I do apologise to you Marnie and anyone else who felt sideswiped.

Now I will explain what I mean and where I'm coming from. The body of Christs is a covenant community and we have to keep the covenant with God in all things, including how our children are educated.

Man was created, as God's likeness and for God's glory, to study, subdue and develop the world in which God placed him (Gen. 1:26-28). This was something God intended parents to do (I have already posted the justification for this already), but it's not always easy. The curse on mankind in Gen 3 was not only a spiritual issue (Rom. 8:5-8; Eph. 2:1-4) but also an intellectual corruption (Rom. 1:21-22; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:17-18). Those who are antagonistic to God and those who are Gods will have crossed purposes and be at war with each other as we have been from the beginning. (Gen. 3:15).

In order for our children to develop a proper knowledge of the world and the things of God, children must be educated within the perspective given by God's revelation, not according to the world (I already posted justification for this also). Genuine knowledge of a given subject, even math, begins with submission to God (Prov. 1:7), and this is particularly true when you end up dealing with philosophy and social issues which need to come from Christ rather than human understandings. (Col. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:20). Thus neutrality in education is not only impossible (Matt. 12:30), but immoral (Jas. 4:4). Christian parents are to see to it that children learn to think Christ's thoughts and not the worlds (2 Cor. 10:5), (Col. 2:3), or they will never have spiritual freedom (John 8:31-32). It is the parents right and duty to see to it that their children are educated in one way and one way only on any topic, God's way, thinking God's thoughts, in the light of what God thinks. (Eph. 6:4; Prov. 5:1-2; Ps. 36:9; 119:105, 130). "And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart, and you shall teach them diligently unto your children" (Deut. 6:6-9). Note the implications of this verse. This is a constant ongoing things, the interaction between parent and child and it is also done in light of God's truth. Secondly, it is directly assigned to the parents, not the church and not the state.

Not only should education of children be done to teach a biblical worldview, but it should be done FROM a biblical worldview. Age segregation is not from a biblical worldview and it is a rather new invention. It comes not from a scriptural understanding of human development but of a humanistic version of darwinism. Stanley Hall concluded that individuals evolve through the same stages as our anscestors supposedly did. Young children were to be left alone and taught to "play" and then later the kids went through a "Crisis Period" during early pubescence which allowed children to be taught in school because now they were like "early pygmys."

He also believed that each generation had the potential to be superior to the one before and thus the child needs to break free from those which are older and might hold them back. This philosophy codified youth rebellion which does not exist in cultures which have not embraced this philosophy. Dewey took this idea further and sought to isolate the older kids not just from their elders but from other children as well so they could go through their crisis period in isolation.

This is not the biblical view.

[LadyRaven]

In a covenant community, which is biblical, it is much different. The neither the early church, nor the children of Israel had such divisions of age in worship or education. It was assumed that everyone was there together. The reasoning?

Hear, my children, the instruction of a father, and give attention to know understanding; for I give you good doctrine: Do not forsake my law. When I was my father's son, tender and the only one in the sight of my mother, he also taught me, and said to me: "Let your heart retain my words; keep my commands, and live..." (Proverbs 4:14)

You shall rise up before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your

God: I am the Lord (Leviticus 19:32).

Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love,

in spirit, in faith, in purity (1 Timothy 4:12).

Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the

Lord out of a pure heart (2 Timothy 2:22).

As you see here, all ages are to treat each other with respect and special honour is given to parents and other elders in the community. With age, in a biblical community, comes wisdom and thus the youth are supposed to learn from the older ones, not be kept away from them.

"Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. So he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the Lord's people transgress." . . . Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father. . . (1 Samuel 2:22-25). It is obvious that despite the fact that their father was a leader in the faith community the sons were not brought up well. Sure they were raised "in the tabernacle" but something was wrong. Eli was judged for it, and he also set a bad example for his apprentice Samuel who had similar problems with his own kids (see 1 Sam. 2:27ff and 8:1-3). The Biblical model teaches that the fathers are to control the spiritual education of their children, and those that do well are eligable to be Elders (1 Tim. 3:45; Titus 1:6). As elders practice their fatherhood biblically, they will grow better equipped to work with and teach other fathers (Heb. 5:14).

Age segregation at church is a form of class distinction which is not allowed by the word of God.

[Guest LadyC]

candi, sorry you've been burnt. i agree children's church should never be a babysitting service. my own personal experience when i was a child was vastly different, so i'm going to share it with you just so you get another perspective, of how influential and important children's church can be.

when i would attend the sermon with my parents i was bored and restless and didn't hear a word that was taught. same thing happened later during my tween years when we moved to a new city and children's church (i'll call it c.c.) wasn't available (sunday school at that church was before the sermon.) but between the ages of about 6 and 10, we attended a church that had children's service.

the service was always exciting, the c.c. pastor and his wife were very definitely annointed, and the lessons were often taught through puppet shows or other means that made it interesting for kids. i had attended their services for about a year when i decided i wanted what God promised, and the c.c. pastor sat down with me, discussed it with me to make sure i understood, and then he led me to Christ. (he had also led my brother to Christ previously.)

he and his wife were very instrumental in my life, not just as a child, but throughout my adult years. they had four children, so our families became quite close when we were younger. unfortunately, his wife passed away about five years ago from throat cancer (yes, God can even annoint smokers!)... i cried like a baby when she died. and then when my father passed away two years ago, my c.c. pastor drove across the state to preside over dad's memorial service.

my parents brought me up very well grounded in scripture. they were wonderful christians (mom still is). but it wasn't JUST my parents teaching and training that instilled a solid faith in my life, the kind of faith that never faded even when i ran from it, it was the teaching from my c.c. pastor and his wife, as well.

[LadyRaven]

The bond of covenant community existed in the OT and is re-emphasised in the NT. The way we relate to each other teaches the world about how God relates to US. At one time the Jews and Gentiles were uncomfy being together, but Paul put a lid on that mess in Romans 10. "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon him" (Rom. 10:12). We see a similar teaching in Galatians "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28). Again...Colossians and then in Corinthians "a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11) "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13).

When we are in covenant community we are not only to be one with God but one with each other. If we are to be one with strangers how is it that we are not one with the smaller inhabitants of our homes and we send them away for instruction and/or worship? Or is it that they are not members of the convenant community? Scripture is clear throughout that the gospel is not just for individuals but for families, starting with one individual... When we separate the generations for worship we are saying by our actions that the Gospel cannot unite the generations, when scripture plainly teaches it can and should.

It may appear that "age segregation works because things are on their level" but that sort of pragmatism is not biblical. We don't do things because they work we do them because God teaches us to do so. Not only this but age segregation does not work, it results in the same type of division of youth and adult culture that exists in the uber culture which was founded on darwinian evolution. Only there is a christian veneer on it.

[Smalcald]

Our pastor talked about the evil of pornography last month, I assume that would be okay for the kids?

Sometimes we must have age appropriate instruction. We are to bring our kids up with knowledge of doctrine and the scriptures. I think the most effective way to do that is to have them have some time away from the adult worship service learning in their own way.

I do think they should take part in the regular worship service though, communion, the readings of the Gospels, prayer, etc, but they don't need the sermons written for adults.

[LadyRaven]

The nature and function of the church is a necessary outgrowth of the Gospel and you cannot preach the gospel without including the church. One of the primary evidences of Christ's power is a congregation in covenant with God and each other, which includes all types of people and transcends all barriers including age. One who calls to the lost does not just call the person to an individual experience but into a community and under the dominion of Christ through the Church.

The church is not founded on humanistic notions of darwinian evolution which teach that the youth are going to be superior to the elders once they go through their crisis period, the church is founded on the word of God which teaches unity of the body and respect for elders. The work of evangelism therefore should also call people out of this worldly dehumanising and modern idea and back into an ancient faith.

When we change the format, we alter the substance. The people of God are one, each congregation is a covenant community, an integrated whole according to the Bible and yet when you segregate them you are going against the very thing God teaches by your example. Segregation is a sad result of non biblical thinking. Generational worship weakens the covenant family because it removes the children from their primary teachers (their parents). Parents don't always depend upon these conventions to teach their children completely, however they are still not a complete part of what is going on...they are in another room and they are not privy to what has been said or done. Generational worship tacitly says to the children that the most important set of relationships in the church is your peers, as that is who you spend the majority of your time with.

Generational worship also demeans the role of older people in the lives of the children, in direct conflict with scripture's teaching that these are the role models and bringers of wisdom. The culture says the children and the oldsters can't understand each other and the children will be greater one day anyway...and the church does nothing to counter that. Instead it does what the world does and separates them.

[Guest LadyC]

where the argument for NOT separating children from their parents in church falls apart is that it is assuming that there is no other christian instruction in the HOME. church service is all of what, two hours a week? i do not believe that the Bible forbids there being teaching directed at adults and teaching directed at children, because their primary source of learning about God and about scripture should still be in the home, with the family. a parent who does not teach their children at home every day, every waking hour by example or targeted training, is already falling down on the job as a parent.

[Candi770]

where the argument for NOT separating children from their parents in church falls apart is that it is assuming that there is no other christian instruction in the HOME. church service is all of what, two hours a week? i do not believe that the Bible forbids there being teaching directed at adults and teaching directed at children, because their primary source of learning about God and about scripture should still be in the home, with the family. a parent who does not teach their children at home every day, every waking hour by example or targeted training, is already falling down on the job as a parent.

So true!!