King James Bible Debate!!!

[kittylover0991]

Thanks Reb!!!

I really appreciate your words lol what is a "detractor"??? lol Yeah, there is still half the class left and my pastor said that even though he has been studying this for about 10-15 years now.. there is still so much to learn... it's just amazing that there is so much on this subject... a lot of it is false doctrine and so many do not know the truths or know the truth but won't say it... which is interesting...

But we did a thing in class where we opened up different bibles(each person had a bible... NIV, NASB, Good News, and some other ones) and looked at just 15 verses that been ommitted in the newer versions... ommitted either because they just aren' there, or put in parenthesis, brackets, or footnotes saying they aren't in the most reliable manuscriputs. Thank you so much Reb!

Crystal

[Rebmilc]

As an interesting afterthought to what I said earlier I would ask you all to consider Luke 2:33.

KJV: "And JOSEPH and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him".

NIV: "THE CHILD'S FATHER and mother marvelled at what was said about him".

Joseph the father of Jesus? Now if that doesn't change the teaching of scripture I don't know what does.

OK I accept that Joseph was Jesus father in the adoptive sense, but if you only had that verse of Scripture from the NIV you would have to conclude that Joseph was Jesus Father in every sense.

[Rebmilc]

Thanks Reb!!!

I really appreciate your words lol what is a "detractor"??? lol Yeah, there is still half the class left and my pastor said that even though he has been studying this for about 10-15 years now.. there is still so much to learn... it's just amazing that there is so much on this subject... a lot of it is false doctrine and so many do not know the truths or know the truth but won't say it... which is interesting...

But we did a thing in class where we opened up different bibles(each person had a bible... NIV, NASB, Good News, and some other ones) and looked at just 15 verses that been ommitted in the newer versions... ommitted either because they just aren' there, or put in parenthesis, brackets, or footnotes saying they aren't in the most reliable manuscriputs. Thank you so much Reb!

Crystal

[Tye#2]

LOL!!! Yeah, this little Kitty's going to Bible Institute at her church and just had a midterm tonight that only took like 15 minutes LOL

But seriously, I've been learning so many things in this class.. I had never known about Aleph (Sinaiticus) and B (Vaticanus) or even Westcott and Hort.. not to mention the Nestle Aland Greek Text.. and then the "M" that stands for "Majority texts" in the Nestle Aland that represents about a hundred manuscriputs.. I also never knew that all the new modern versions are based off of the work of Westcott and Hort... this can be proven not only by the book Westcott and Hort (W-H) wrote, but also in the fact that the same verses are missing, bracketed or footnoted(to say they shouldn't be there), etc... nto to metnion that in the Vaticanus, the last 12 verses in the book of Mark are left out... The Vaticanus was discovered, oh, approxiamately 1450 A.D. and was kept in a musuem from there... until a man somehow copied. But anyways, I find it interesting that because it was written on vellum, that priests would start the next book in the next column, however, there is an entire blank column between Mark and Luke, and just enough space for the verses of Mark 16:9-20! So cool!!!!

Not to mention, they say that the newer versions are based on the most reliable manuscripts, but because it is based off the work of W-H, which is based off of only Aleph and B, they are only based off of two manuscripts. That is becuase W-H dismissed anything that was "Syrian"/ Byzantine/Textus Receptus(Recieved Text)... so cool!!!!

I would have to agree with Robert J. Sargent when he wrote on this subject that the only English version of the Bible accurately translated from the Masoretic is the King James Bible of 1611 A.D., also known as the Athorized Version; then again I'm realated to the guy!lol(King James) Not to mention I'm one of the last born poet of this day, so the language agrees with me.

[John R Nolan]

If you other thread readers would allow me too. Perhaps I can present the other side of the westcott & Hort controversy.

First of all I am NOT a conspiracy buff, and I realize that conspiracy theories are banned on these boards. However I do feel that it is important that if we are discussing the westcott & Hort text, that we should at least have a look into the lives of W&H to see what motivated them and where they were coming from. So that we can be aware of their text and make up our own minds about the newer translations which are based on it.

Below are 7 Points to consider about W&H with a small introduction.

B.F Westcott & F.J.A Hort were two Oxford Bible scholars who were highly regarded as authorities on the Greek New Testament. However the recent controversy over the KJV (Known as King James Onlyism) has thrown a flood of light into the dark corners of these two mens lives, and many modern Bible scholars have been shocked at what has been revealed.

(1) Westcott was a bishop in the Anglican church & Hort a professor of divinity, but both men abandoned their Christian faith.

(2) Westcott formed a club while an undergraduate at Cambridge, the club was called "Hermes" and was bi-sexual or androgynous in nature. These clubs were noted for the intensity of the homosexual relationships between the members, however there is no concrete evidence that westcott himself was homosexual..

(3) Through their entire years involved in the bible revision, they were immersed in various secret societies and political initiatives including the hermes club, Ghost society, the company of apostles, eranus, and the fabian society. More research materials on these clubs and what they stood for can be easily found on the internet. It is a well known historical fact that both men were both interested in, and involved in the occult.

(4) In 1851 W&H founded the ghost society which later became the society for psychical research. Here again much research info about this club can be found on the net.

(5) Both W&H were commited communists who both hated America and democracy. There was a close tie between their occult group and Marxism in England, and along with Arthur Balfour (who was to become Prime minister of the balfour declaration fame) They began work on what was to become the one world religion & the new world order.

(6) A key strategy in bringing about this one world religion involved replacing the KJV which in their day was the standard, with a revised text where words were added, removed and meanings changed. How successfull they were in this undertaking can be seen in the fact that today W&Hs new age versions have virtually replaced the KJV.

(7) During the years they worked on their revised text, they met secretly at night to hold seances, usually these meetings were held at Balfours home. They are acknowledged in many occult circles today as the fathers of modern "Channeling" which involves inviting a familiar spirit (demon) into ones body. (a Practice punishable by death in the OT). see Isaiah 8:19, Isaiah 28:7-8, and Isaiah 29:4.

Much more could be said about W&H however in conclusion. Here we have two men who were at the very least, influenced by demons, whose motivation was not to glorify God, but to bring about a new world order complete with a new world religion based on spiritualism.

All the above facts can be found from their own writings/letters and the histories of the occult clubs which they founded. If you are interested in further research into the beliefs of these two men an excellent work on the subject is "New age Bible Versions by G.A. Riplinger. (although I don't agree with some of Gail's conclusions).

I am NOT trashing any modern version of the Bible and I am NOT a KJV only Person, but am just pointing out as a matter of interest, where the text on which many of them are based on comes from.

In the words of sergeant phil in hill street blues "Let's be carefull out there".

[John R Nolan]

If you other thread readers would allow me too. Perhaps I can present the other side of the westcott & Hort controversy.

First of all I am NOT a conspiracy buff, and I realize that conspiracy theories are banned on these boards. However I do feel that it is important that if we are discussing the westcott & Hort text, that we should at least have a look into the lives of W&H to see what motivated them and where they were coming from. So that we can be aware of their text and make up our own minds about the newer translations which are based on it.

Below are 7 Points to consider about W&H with a small introduction.

B.F Westcott & F.J.A Hort were two Oxford Bible scholars who were highly regarded as authorities on the Greek New Testament. However the recent controversy over the KJV (Known as King James Onlyism) has thrown a flood of light into the dark corners of these two mens lives, and many modern Bible scholars have been shocked at what has been revealed.

(1) Westcott was a bishop in the Anglican church & Hort a professor of divinity, but both men abandoned their Christian faith.

(2) Westcott formed a club while an undergraduate at Cambridge, the club was called "Hermes" and was bi-sexual or androgynous in nature. These clubs were noted for the intensity of the homosexual relationships between the members, however there is no concrete evidence that westcott himself was homosexual..

(3) Through their entire years involved in the bible revision, they were immersed in various secret societies and political initiatives including the hermes club, Ghost society, the company of apostles, eranus, and the fabian society. More research materials on these clubs and what they stood for can be easily found on the internet. It is a well known historical fact that both men were both interested in, and involved in the occult.

(4) In 1851 W&H founded the ghost society which later became the society for psychical research. Here again much research info about this club can be found on the net.

(5) Both W&H were commited communists who both hated America and democracy. There was a close tie between their occult group and Marxism in England, and along with Arthur Balfour (who was to become Prime minister of the balfour declaration fame) They began work on what was to become the one world religion & the new world order.

(6) A key strategy in bringing about this one world religion involved replacing the KJV which in their day was the standard, with a revised text where words were added, removed and meanings changed. How successfull they were in this undertaking can be seen in the fact that today W&Hs new age versions have virtually replaced the KJV.

(7) During the years they worked on their revised text, they met secretly at night to hold seances, usually these meetings were held at Balfours home. They are acknowledged in many occult circles today as the fathers of modern "Channeling" which involves inviting a familiar spirit (demon) into ones body. (a Practice punishable by death in the OT). see Isaiah 8:19, Isaiah 28:7-8, and Isaiah 29:4.

Much more could be said about W&H however in conclusion. Here we have two men who were at the very least, influenced by demons, whose motivation was not to glorify God, but to bring about a new world order complete with a new world religion based on spiritualism.

All the above facts can be found from their own writings/letters and the histories of the occult clubs which they founded. If you are interested in further research into the beliefs of these two men an excellent work on the subject is "New age Bible Versions by G.A. Riplinger. (although I don't agree with some of Gail's conclusions).

I am NOT trashing any modern version of the Bible and I am NOT a KJV only Person, but am just pointing out as a matter of interest, where the text on which many of them are based on comes from.

In the words of sergeant phil in hill street blues "Let's be carefull out there".

[John R Nolan]

Thank you for your valuable contribution on the Hort and Wescott tranlation; if that information is correct, and I have no reason to doubt your integrity, it is all the more reason for us to encourage others to get back to the Original Word

Hopefully the previous post on the K.J.V. will also help clarify this topic

[Rebmilc]

Quote from Anita: "WHO CARES AS LONG AS THE SCRIPTURES ARE TRANSLATED CORRECTLY"?

The whole point is anita that they haven't been translated correctly, there are many relevant omissions, and alterations. These alterations between the KJV and modern translations:

(1) Weaken the deity of Christ.

(2) Alter the Incarnation of Christ.

(3) Deny the role of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus & therefore His divine nature.

(4) Alter the substitutionary atonement.

(5) Cast doubts on the bodily ressurection.

(6) Obliterate His ascension.

(7) Deny the trinity.

(8) Alter the teaching of justification by faith alone.

(9) Diminish the innerancy of scripture.

TO NAME JUST A FEW.

If you don't believe me check it out for yourself. as I and many other Christians have had to do,(1 Thess 5:21) Prove all things. You may be suprised at what you find.

All these alterations to the historical doctrines of Christianity as we have known them, are found in the modern translations.

chipping away a little at a time to the truths that we all hold dear.

Anita the bottom line is that when God's word is being attacked you should care.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Rebmilc

[Rebmilc]

Thank you for your valuable contribution on the Hort and Wescott tranlation; if that information is correct, and I have no reason to doubt your integrity, it is all the more reason for us to encourage others to get back to the Original Word

Hopefully the previous post on the K.J.V. will also help clarify this topic

Thank you so much John.

It is refreshing to see that there are still many Christians who will follow the advice of the Apostle paul and "Prove ALL things" and "HOLD FAST" that which is good (1 Thess 5:21).

your previous post on the KJV was very interesting.

I too was a ardent supporter of modern transalations untill I undertook some research of my own when I became confused that my Pastor was reading verses from the Bible which were not in my version.

Yours in His service

Neil.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Rebmilc

[John R Nolan]

Thank you for your valuable contribution on the Hort and Wescott tranlation; if that information is correct, and I have no reason to doubt your integrity, it is all the more reason for us to encourage others to get back to the Original Word

Hopefully the previous post on the K.J.V. will also help clarify this topic

Thank you so much John.

It is refreshing to see that there are still many Christians who will follow the advice of the Apostle paul and "Prove ALL things" and "HOLD FAST" that which is good (1 Thess 5:21).

your previous post on the KJV was very interesting.

I too was a ardent supporter of modern transalations untill I undertook some research of my own when I became confused that my Pastor was reading verses from the Bible which were not in my version.

Yours in His service

Neil.