Pagan Origins and Christianity

[LadyRaven]

as far as Halloween which is on your list Kabowd,

Here's a quote from http://www.nisbett.com/holidays/halloween_...perspective.htm -- there are a lot of sites to find information on Halloween and how it is celebrated by satanists NOW.

"But while children and adults innocently imitate ancient Celtic customs, darker practices persist. Witches and Satanists still consider Halloween to be one of the strongest times during the year to cast a spell. On Halloween most witchcraft practitioners participate in a ritual called "drawing down the moon." In this the chief witch of the coven (group of witches) becomes, they believe, a channel for the moon goddess. During this ritual the participants, both male and female, are 'sky-clad" -- that is , naked. Stonehenge, the mysterious ancient stone formation in England, is often the site for bizarre gatherings of occultists, some of who believe they are modern-day Druids. (Many people believe that Stonehenge was a Druid religious site.) And evidence persists that some Satanist and voodoo groups offer sacrifices usually animals, but, possibly, human babies."

Since this is posted in Hot Topics, I will say I just wonder why a Christian would want to celebrate a pagan holiday that satanists love today? A holiday that glorifies the devil with its black cats, bats, witches, ghosts, goblins, monsters, and more?

I want one police report with a sacrificed baby linked to a satanic ritual killing. Just one.

[Joshua-777]

NOw alot of these things I've noticed where actualy even pre pagan, paganism started in cains roots, But as far as the massiah, being born of a virgen, circumcision, and alot of stuff you mentioned, Where in fact pre pagan, and in all honestly, where God's before This word was made, yes there is alot of paganism in our society, and alot of things that come from it, but things Christ and his message, Cannot and will not be in any way taken from paganism, cause

Josh1:1-2

In the begining there was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was in the begining with God.

What is in the bible, and the what God has established with his people, Was from God, in the begining, Circumcision, was originaly from God, Gods ultimate sacrifice, was from God. Predating our world, predating creation.

I would like to know where you got your info on all of this, alot of it I agree where taken from paganism, but some things you named pertaining Gods covenent with isreal, circumcision, Virgin birth, Christ dying for our sins, Where from the begining.

[Emily~Anne]

as far as Halloween which is on your list Kabowd,

Here's a quote from http://www.nisbett.com/holidays/halloween_...perspective.htm -- there are a lot of sites to find information on Halloween and how it is celebrated by satanists NOW.

"But while children and adults innocently imitate ancient Celtic customs, darker practices persist. Witches and Satanists still consider Halloween to be one of the strongest times during the year to cast a spell. On Halloween most witchcraft practitioners participate in a ritual called "drawing down the moon." In this the chief witch of the coven (group of witches) becomes, they believe, a channel for the moon goddess. During this ritual the participants, both male and female, are 'sky-clad" -- that is , naked. Stonehenge, the mysterious ancient stone formation in England, is often the site for bizarre gatherings of occultists, some of who believe they are modern-day Druids. (Many people believe that Stonehenge was a Druid religious site.) And evidence persists that some Satanist and voodoo groups offer sacrifices usually animals, but, possibly, human babies."

Since this is posted in Hot Topics, I will say I just wonder why a Christian would want to celebrate a pagan holiday that satanists love today? A holiday that glorifies the devil with its black cats, bats, witches, ghosts, goblins, monsters, and more?

I want one police report with a sacrificed baby linked to a satanic ritual killing. Just one.

My own foster mother witnessed a baby being sacrificed. Just because it hasn't happened in front of you and you are an ex witch doesnt mean it doesn't happen. Aren't there different groups of witches? And aren't they different than devil worshippers as they do not believe in the devil or God, but rather several Goddesses? Were you in a coven that did sacrifices? My cousin who died a few months ago, was a witch as well, and she ran a cat rescue. I know she was never involved in animal sacrifices. It is other groups that do that. So I dont think your experience applies here. All I know is that it DOES happen. Seems they dont get caught in the act during the ritual. My husband who is a supervising 911 dispatcher says he only gets calls about sites where a satanic ritual very obviously had already occured. I am sure they are very careful to keep it secret during the ritual. It is too bad they don't get caught in the act.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Emily Anne

[billie]

My pastor and his wife took in a teenage girl who was involved in a group os Satan worshippers. Every year on Halloween night they sacrificed a human. They didn't sacrifice babies. They all drew lots to see which one of them would be sacrificed. This girl had drew the lot to be sacrificed that year. They had to tell her parents and the family actually moved out of the state to get away from these people.

This is why our church doesn't celebrate Halloween.

[Emily~Anne]

NOw alot of these things I've noticed where actualy even pre pagan, paganism started in cains roots, But as far as the massiah, being born of a virgen, circumcision, and alot of stuff you mentioned, Where in fact pre pagan, and in all honestly, where God's before This word was made, yes there is alot of paganism in our society, and alot of things that come from it, but things Christ and his message, Cannot and will not be in any way taken from paganism, cause

Josh1:1-2

In the begining there was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was in the begining with God.

What is in the bible, and the what God has established with his people, Was from God, in the begining, Circumcision, was originaly from God, Gods ultimate sacrifice, was from God. Predating our world, predating creation.

I would like to know where you got your info on all of this, alot of it I agree where taken from paganism, but some things you named pertaining Gods covenent with isreal, circumcision, Virgin birth, Christ dying for our sins, Where from the begining.

Well said Josh, I also noticed he claims several things to ORIGINATE from paganism, and I know that was inaccurate. Didn't baptism originate from the jewish not the pagans? As far as Christmas, I think he has it mixed up with Winter Solstice, which lands in the same week I believe, but a different day. As far as trees and stuff like that, well those originated from God in the first 6 days of creation. What a pagan goes and does with trees I really don't care. If they want to imitate us, I really don't care, we will still have a Christmas tree(with a star on top to represent the Star of Bethlehem ) .What I dont feel comfortable doing is imitating what actually originates from pagans or devil worshippers especially. Few things on Kabowd's list actually originate from paganism. I thank you Josh for respecting my family's choice not to observe Halloween customs.

Also, pagans do not believe in our God, therefore do not believe in Satan either. So they are not the ones that bother me the most about Halloween, it is the satanic roots that bother me. <---keyword here is roots Kabowd. It is not that Satan worshippers are imitating us on Halloween, it is that I do not want to imitate them. It doesnt bother me if they imitate what originates from Christianity, it bothers me to imitate what originates from them.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Emily Anne

[Kabowd]

NOw alot of these things I've noticed where actualy even pre pagan, paganism started in cains roots, But as far as the massiah, being born of a virgen, circumcision, and alot of stuff you mentioned, Where in fact pre pagan, and in all honestly, where God's before This word was made, yes there is alot of paganism in our society, and alot of things that come from it, but things Christ and his message, Cannot and will not be in any way taken from paganism, cause

Josh1:1-2

In the begining there was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was in the begining with God.

What is in the bible, and the what God has established with his people, Was from God, in the begining, Circumcision, was originaly from God, Gods ultimate sacrifice, was from God. Predating our world, predating creation.

I would like to know where you got your info on all of this, alot of it I agree where taken from paganism, but some things you named pertaining Gods covenent with isreal, circumcision, Virgin birth, Christ dying for our sins, Where from the begining.

Well said Josh, I also noticed he claims several things to ORIGINATE from paganism, and I know that was inaccurate. Didn't baptism originate from the jewish not the pagans? As far as Christmas, I think he has it mixed up with Winter Solstice, which lands in the same week I believe, but a different day. As far as trees and stuff like that, well those originated from God in the first 6 days of creation. What a pagan goes and does with trees I really don't care. If they want to imitate us, I really don't care, we will still have a Christmas tree(with a star on top to represent the Star of Bethlehem ) .What I dont feel comfortable doing is imitating what actually originates from pagans or devil worshippers especially. Few things on Kabowd's list actually originate from paganism. I thank you Josh for respecting my family's choice not to observe Halloween customs.

Also, pagans do not believe in our God, therefore do not believe in Satan either. So they are not the ones that bother me the most about Halloween, it is the satanic roots that bother me. <---keyword here is roots Kabowd. It is not that Satan worshippers are imitating us on Halloween, it is that I do not want to imitate them. It doesnt bother me if they imitate what originates from Christianity, it bothers me to imitate what originates from them.

I don't know why I'm bothering responding, considering you continue to ignore the majority of what I've stated, and aren't interested in studying the issue from reliable sources. But anyway, yes, it's accurate information. If you're wanting me to give you a link to some website for the information, I don't have one. I don't google to learn the truth. I study under biblical scholars, read books and learn from those who are wiser than myself. I'd encourage you both to do some personal research and study before you accuse me of not having my facts straight. Do some reading and studying and then we'll talk. As far as the dying god, messiah born of a virgin thing....again, these are not concepts exclusive to Christianity. This is historical fact, not a myth. This doesn't mean they were "originally pagan", but it does show that these beliefs did pre-date Christianity. GK Chesterton and CS Lewis are just two authors who addressed this issue.

As far as baptism, again, you're incorrect. It is historical fact that baptism was a practice of purification which was used prior to Christianity by pagans. Do some research, look up Tertullian's Treatise de Baptismo or Justin Martyrs First Apology. Both addressed the issue of baptism being first introduced by pagans as a means of identification with a particular belief or a practice of purification.

And AGAIN, some of the KEY POINTS you are CONTINUING to avoid:

1. Motive/Intent. God looks at the heart.

2. Paul's words in Acts 17 and Romans 14 clearly give us freedom with regards to issues like these.

3. The early church and church fathers (not to mention Scripture) clearly did not have a problem using an originally pagan practice (baptism) as a means of identification with Christ.

There have been alot of emotional appeals (dramatic stories and inaccurate information) brought up in this topic. I do not deny that there are SOME people who DO worship satan on October 31st. There are people who worship satan every day of the year. So what? The DAY belongs to the LORD, and what He cares about is how I CHOOSE to honor HIM with it. You cannot assert that if I give candy to children as a blessing on October 31st that I am doing so in honor of satan, as you do not have the authority to judge my motives. If you accuse others, based on your misinformation or assumptions about their intentions then you are in violation of Romans 14. It's sin, plain and simple. If you have a personal conviction, or feel 'bothered' by it, that's fine. But do NOT try to tell everyone else that it is wrong for them, and certainly don't try to manipulate Scripture to support your conviction. This is crossing the line into legalism.

[billie]

Kabowd, I totally agree with you on that. I don't celebrate Halloween, but you're right. I wouldn't try to make someone else feel that they're doing something wrong by giving out candy or dressing their kids up as a little pumpkin.

[LadyRaven]

Emily,

I'm not being horrible when I ask for the reports, I actually do care about this. Like I said before while I wasn't a satanic witch (per se, we all know the gods and goddess I worshipped were all demons), and any sacrifices done by myself and anyone I knew were not lethal to anything that wasn't a plant. I know of a few blood rituals but the people are alive and healthy when it's over. But witches were accused of these things on a regular basis and I was suprised that when I went to church and mentioned in my testimony that I was a witch people assumed I'd done this sort of thing. I was also suprised at how widespread the belief that this occured on a large scale within the Christian community was. So I kept researching it to find out what the truth was.

This was sort of a "fad belief" in the eighties actually. People who weren't even Christians were scared wittless over this thanks to Geraldo Rivera, and yet law enforcement officers from all over come on tv every year and say that there is no evidence that this happened in this area last year (and i've lived many places) and there is no evidence that it would happen this year. This discrepency did not make much sense to me.

As I said before, I was a pagan witch, as opposed to a satanic one and yes this does not mean it doesn't happen because I didn't see it or haven't seen any reports of it myself. However, this isn't something I've just made a decision about, this is an educated opinion. Since there is hysteria surrounding the topic, I would honestly like credible people to speak out. IE, people who have never been hypnotised, people who have never taken hallucinogenic drugs, people who have back up wittnesses willing to say the same thing as them, adults who have seen children sacrificed as adults, people with no mental problems and no evidence of FMS (False memory syndrome), etc because it's not documented if it's going on as it should be.

Based on my research, which of course is fallible and possibly outdated since it was the early and mid eighties when I did most of it...

1. Out of the population of the US which just went over that huge number, about 10K LeVey style satanists exist, Ritual satanists who are not affiliated with the Church of Satan are rare, and freelancers are rarer still and other total of about 10,000. There are about 100K teenagers dabbling at any given time. Very few cities have enough satanists to even have a coven or church.

2. Teenagers rarely "ritually" kill anyone or anything, though they have been known to participate in vandalism, non lethal violence and...other types of killing and usually it's not on halloween (ie, school shootings). They also participate in other cruel acts to animals too, though again its not reserved to halloween.

3. Most rituals occur between adults and are non lethal to humans, usually it's animals or blood letting. I have read of a few accounts in which the blood letting has gone wrong and killed the person who was bled, it was an accident. There are also alledged sex rituals which sometimes include a drugged adult who is not part of their coven and who is incapable of consenting even if they would have otherwise done so...but I haven't found any tangible proof of this either.

4. Human volunteer sacrifices have been said to occur but these have not been substantiated by anyone in law enforcement, and the undocumented testimonies have indicated overwhelmingly that these are adults or teens and not small children.

5. While people still do come forward and say that this happens every year on 31 Oct and on other days, I have the word of many many people in LE and Psychology who have studied the matter and have concluded that it's questionable, and if it is happening at all, it's not happening with any greater frequency than any other type of abuse for any other reason.

6. Many people who have become famous for speaking out on SRA have later been discredited as having made the story up, such as Lauren Stratford

some of my sources include:

Kenneth V. Lanning, "Investigator's Guide to Allegations of 'Ritual' Child Abuse", Behavioral Science Unit, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI Academy, Quantico, Virginia 22135 (1992)

The JET Report (UK)

Orkney abuse case

Coleman, L. (1989). A Medical Examination for Sexual Abuse: Have We Been Misled? Issues In Child Abuse Accusations, 1(3), 1-9.

Coleman, L. (1990). False accusations of sexual abuse: Psychiatry's latest reign of error. Journal of Mind and Behavior, 2(3-4), 545-546.

Nathan, D. (1990, June12). The ritual abuse hoax. Village Voice, p. 36-44. Reprinted in D. Nathan (1991), Women and Other Aliens (Paperback) (pp. 148-176). El Paso, TX: Cinco Puntas Press.

I have read much much more than this over the years, and to be fair I'll state that I have also read horrid books about alledged victims and their experiences (including one who supposedly has a scratch from Satan on her face because he rejected her as a sacrifice). Since you believe this happens with some frequency, however I don't feel the need to list them as I wouldn't need to convince you that it happens, right?

Obviously I could have been misled, but I tend to remain very skeptical of this phenomenon. Yeah, it's possible, esp since people go missing each year and are never found. However, In order for me to believe it exists with any noticable frequency, I would have to have a documentable case. There are so many things which could go wrong with the human mind that it's staggering and since the 1980s we've had a rash of "false memories" of many different kinds of abuse, not just SRA. I don't mean to sound like I'm automatically discrediting anyone you know which claims this has happened to them, but without something solid I just can't state that it happens and I'm certainly not getting all wierded out about Halloween over it because if it does happen, Halloween is not the special day for it to happen, according to the accounts I've read, if it is true, it's an ongoing thing, not once a year on Halloween.

[Emily~Anne]

NOw alot of these things I've noticed where actualy even pre pagan, paganism started in cains roots, But as far as the massiah, being born of a virgen, circumcision, and alot of stuff you mentioned, Where in fact pre pagan, and in all honestly, where God's before This word was made, yes there is alot of paganism in our society, and alot of things that come from it, but things Christ and his message, Cannot and will not be in any way taken from paganism, cause

Josh1:1-2

In the begining there was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was in the begining with God.

What is in the bible, and the what God has established with his people, Was from God, in the begining, Circumcision, was originaly from God, Gods ultimate sacrifice, was from God. Predating our world, predating creation.

I would like to know where you got your info on all of this, alot of it I agree where taken from paganism, but some things you named pertaining Gods covenent with isreal, circumcision, Virgin birth, Christ dying for our sins, Where from the begining.

Well said Josh, I also noticed he claims several things to ORIGINATE from paganism, and I know that was inaccurate. Didn't baptism originate from the jewish not the pagans? As far as Christmas, I think he has it mixed up with Winter Solstice, which lands in the same week I believe, but a different day. As far as trees and stuff like that, well those originated from God in the first 6 days of creation. What a pagan goes and does with trees I really don't care. If they want to imitate us, I really don't care, we will still have a Christmas tree(with a star on top to represent the Star of Bethlehem ) .What I dont feel comfortable doing is imitating what actually originates from pagans or devil worshippers especially. Few things on Kabowd's list actually originate from paganism. I thank you Josh for respecting my family's choice not to observe Halloween customs.

Also, pagans do not believe in our God, therefore do not believe in Satan either. So they are not the ones that bother me the most about Halloween, it is the satanic roots that bother me. <---keyword here is roots Kabowd. It is not that Satan worshippers are imitating us on Halloween, it is that I do not want to imitate them. It doesnt bother me if they imitate what originates from Christianity, it bothers me to imitate what originates from them.

As far as the dying god, messiah born of a virgin thing....again, these are not concepts exclusive to Christianity. This is historical fact, not a myth. This doesn't mean they were "originally pagan", but it does show that these beliefs did pre-date Christianity. GK Chesterton and CS Lewis are just two authors who addressed this issue.

As far as baptism, again, you're incorrect. It is historical fact that baptism was a practice of purification which was used prior to Christianity by pagans. Do some research, look up Tertullian's Treatise de Baptismo or Justin Martyrs First Apology. Both addressed the issue of baptism being first introduced by pagans as a means of identification with a particular belief or a practice of purification.

No,no no, didn't say baptism was Christian in origin, I said JEWISH. Also, there is only one true Messiah born of a virgin birth. Jesus! If the pagans or satan worshippers or whoever have some belief about their own Messiah born of a virgin, it is tottally irrelevant because they only think they do.

Just because something is not Christian in origin, does not mean it is automatically pagan in origin. you are talking about paganism right? I am surprised you didn't throw silverware on the list because witches use silverware also so therefore silverware must originate from pagans.

Halloween is not comparable to many of the things on your list. Your list is laughable. Otheriwse, you need to explain in great detail, one by one, how those things are pagan in ORIGIN.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Emily Anne

[Scarletprayers]

NOw alot of these things I've noticed where actualy even pre pagan, paganism started in cains roots, But as far as the massiah, being born of a virgen, circumcision, and alot of stuff you mentioned, Where in fact pre pagan, and in all honestly, where God's before This word was made, yes there is alot of paganism in our society, and alot of things that come from it, but things Christ and his message, Cannot and will not be in any way taken from paganism, cause

Josh1:1-2

In the begining there was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was in the begining with God.

What is in the bible, and the what God has established with his people, Was from God, in the begining, Circumcision, was originaly from God, Gods ultimate sacrifice, was from God. Predating our world, predating creation.

I would like to know where you got your info on all of this, alot of it I agree where taken from paganism, but some things you named pertaining Gods covenent with isreal, circumcision, Virgin birth, Christ dying for our sins, Where from the begining.

Well said Josh, I also noticed he claims several things to ORIGINATE from paganism, and I know that was inaccurate. Didn't baptism originate from the jewish not the pagans? As far as Christmas, I think he has it mixed up with Winter Solstice, which lands in the same week I believe, but a different day. As far as trees and stuff like that, well those originated from God in the first 6 days of creation. What a pagan goes and does with trees I really don't care. If they want to imitate us, I really don't care, we will still have a Christmas tree(with a star on top to represent the Star of Bethlehem ) .What I dont feel comfortable doing is imitating what actually originates from pagans or devil worshippers especially. Few things on Kabowd's list actually originate from paganism. I thank you Josh for respecting my family's choice not to observe Halloween customs.

Also, pagans do not believe in our God, therefore do not believe in Satan either. So they are not the ones that bother me the most about Halloween, it is the satanic roots that bother me. <---keyword here is roots Kabowd. It is not that Satan worshippers are imitating us on Halloween, it is that I do not want to imitate them. It doesnt bother me if they imitate what originates from Christianity, it bothers me to imitate what originates from them.

As far as the dying god, messiah born of a virgin thing....again, these are not concepts exclusive to Christianity. This is historical fact, not a myth. This doesn't mean they were "originally pagan", but it does show that these beliefs did pre-date Christianity. GK Chesterton and CS Lewis are just two authors who addressed this issue.

As far as baptism, again, you're incorrect. It is historical fact that baptism was a practice of purification which was used prior to Christianity by pagans. Do some research, look up Tertullian's Treatise de Baptismo or Justin Martyrs First Apology. Both addressed the issue of baptism being first introduced by pagans as a means of identification with a particular belief or a practice of purification.

No,no no, didn't say baptism was Christian in origin, I said JEWISH. Also, there is only one true Messiah born of a virgin birth. Jesus! If the pagans or satan worshippers or whoever have some belief about their own Messiah born of a virgin, it is tottally irrelevant because they only think they do.

Just because something is not Christian in origin, does not mean it is automatically pagan in origin. you are talking about paganism right? I am surprised you didn't throw silverware on the list because witches use silverware also so therefore silverware must originate from pagans.

Halloween is not comparable to many of the things on your list. Your list is laughable. Otheriwse, you need to explain in great detail, one by one, how those things are pagan in ORIGIN.

Insulting and laughable all by itself.

Maybe you should do alittle research on all of the items Kabowd mentioned, since she is correct.