Who Is Babylon?? according to Jeremiah 50-51

[Guest]

Dear Sister Angela, Welcome to Worthy

I apologize for any confusion concerning my first text. I am unskilled in computer in's and out's, I hope to become more proficient if you will just bear with me.

I was referring to the ongoing conversation about the absurdity of Saddam being the anti-Christ.

Hope this may clarify my remark,that I was in no way referring to any of the immediate texters.

You Go Sis!

Angela, you Do know God created Eve because men really, really need help!

"..... but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him." (Genesis 2:20)

Sis, your posts are enjoyed by your rascally brothers!

If you are so moved to "nudge" your brothers a little from time to time, know you are joining a long and noble line of sisters at Worthy who labor so!

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7)

Post Early, Post Often!

Love, Joe

[abrandnewgirl]

WHO IS BABYLON?

ACCORDING TO JEREMIAH 50-51 IS HOW IT ALL STARTED.

Well, let's use some of the other books and we can dig a little deeper.

Who is Babylon? Is it a place? A system? A region or territory or could it be ancient Persia? This is a topic that I think will continue on until the Two Prophets come on the scene and the abomination of desolation with the Son of Lawlessness being revealed. Then I think it will all be much more clearer. But lets review for now with what we got and see if there is any new material or views that can "hold water".

Hope to hear your opinions.

Girl

Edited December 3, 2007 by abrandnewgirl

[Near]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

Well, in my opinion I do believe it has something to do with the United States. Many may or may not agree with me, but from my prospective and from what Babylon was and what the United States, is, there seem to be things that look similar or resemble the US. I have to study more on Babylon and compare it side by side with the US as it is today. So, please don't take my post for granted!

[JesusisGod2]

I personally believe that Babylon is just that, the city of Babylon. It seems to say that in Revelation

Revelation 18:9-11

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

I agree that the U.S. is full of immorality and sin, as is the rest of the world, but I believe that Babylon is the city of Babylon.

[Isa]

I personally believe that Babylon is just that, the city of Babylon. It seems to say that in Revelation

Revelation 18:9-11

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

I agree that the U.S. is full of immorality and sin, as is the rest of the world, but I believe that Babylon is the city of Babylon.

Yes Babylon is the city but the harlot is the false religious system that was created by Satan at Babel and he will gather under the one banner to Babylon this false religious system. This harlot rides the beast who is of political power and that power was given to him by the dragon (Satan) himself.

Revelation 13

The Beast from the Sea

1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

Revelation 17:3,4

3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

Revelation 17:18

18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

[Massorite]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Hussein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl :Verile:

Very Good! I do remember what Saddam said and because he believed he was re-incarnated he began to rebuild Babylon very close to the ancient Babylon.

I used to think that the Babylon of the bible could be the US because it fits the description but I have since discounted that. I do believe that the Babylon in the bible is the EU and some times the bible refers to Egypt as Babylon and maybe even Israel. I think.

[Isa]

The Babylon spoken of in Rev 18-19 is the old Babylon rebuilt, it is the woman that rides the beast.

The beast that the woman rides is already in the world ruling from Israel because He made a covenant with them. But he will be wounded with a deadly wound, he will die but he will be brought back to life and when he is brought back to life he is filled with the demon that comes up out of the bottomless pit. Those who dwell on the earth, that is the wicked of coarse will marvel over the beast.

But the beast will have the harlot destroyed because he wants the world to worship him alone for the people love this harlot.

[JesusisGod2]

I personally believe that Babylon is just that, the city of Babylon. It seems to say that in Revelation

Revelation 18:9-11

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

I agree that the U.S. is full of immorality and sin, as is the rest of the world, but I believe that Babylon is the city of Babylon.

Yes Babylon is the city but the harlot is the false religious system that was created by Satan at Babel and he will gather under the one banner to Babylon this false religious system. This harlot rides the beast who is of political power and that power was given to him by the dragon (Satan) himself.

I am glad that you see Babylon as just that, the city of Babylon and not the United States which so many people seem to want to do and is the reason I thought I should respond. We need to get away from this train of thought in order to understand what the scriptures are saying

Revelation 13

The Beast from the Sea

1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

Revelation 17:3,4

3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

Revelation 17:18

18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

[Massorite]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text.

I agree.

I do think that the US fits the description of Babylon in the book of Revelation but when I take into consideration the prophesies about the revived Roman Empire and how the EU also fits the description of Babylon. I believe that the future Babylon is the nation of the EU. Which will include all of the territory of the old Roman Empire with Russia being an ally or part of the EU and England being separated from it in the future. At some point in the future the EU is going to change it's policies about Israel and become totally against it when the antichrist breaks his deal with Israel.

[Ephesians2-8]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text.

Rufus

I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom.

50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that...

50:2 -- "and publish" --

50:2 ---"set up a standard" --

These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem.

In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" --

So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom.

So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom.

In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time"

In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom.

In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom.

And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah.

Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon...

Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem.

Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment.

Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom.

Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference.

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah.

Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established.

It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found.

No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah.