What do you object to regarding Christianity and Jesus?

[secondeve]

If you read Romans and Hebrews, and you understand how those in the Old Testament were saved, you would understand better how that isnt contradictory. Please read those 2 books.

I've just read through Hebrews and Romans, and if there was something in either of them about how children can be saved, it escaped me. It explained in some detail how it was that people were saved prior to Christ; but there was also a great deal of emphasis on how people must be saved now, namely, the acceptance of Christ. There was one line in Romans where it said 'blessed is the man against whom God does not count his sins,' or words to that effect, but given the context of Paul exhorting the Gentiles to convert, I don't see how it relates. If there was anything more specific I missed, you'll have to tell me - I'm a pretty fast reader, but I'm also at work, so didn't have time to mull over it or pick through with a fine-tooth comb.

[ayin jade]

No, don't change the analogy. The analogy is that Coca-cola corporation (the bible) says that their product (God) is better than Pepsi's (Quran's) product (Allah).

The coca cola corporation is the God I know, the one who has shown Himself to me. The nonexistent sodas are the gods who do not exist.

Can you see the logic now? The "holy spirit" revealing itself is so subjective, too. It's basically just a placebo effect. You feel the holy spirit because you want to. Have you ever read about placebo studies?

Im familiar with the placebo effect, Im in the medical field. The Holy Spirit isnt that. The Holy Spirit isnt a "feeling". He is someone who guides us, teaches us, and shows us who and how to interact with people whom He wants us to talk to.

Until you yourself become a believer, there is no way you would understand the Holy Spirit and His reality. I certainly didnt understand the Holy Spirit (and hence didnt expect His presence in my life) until He made Himself known to me.

[ayin jade]

Scientists can reproduce religious experiences by stimulating electrical impulses in the brain, what do you think of that?

People who take drugs have radical experiences too. It's like saying "the experience drug-users have are real, even though they have to take the drug first".

And if my experience were an ecstatic response similar to various other religions or drugs, then you might have had a point. However, my relationship with the Lord, and the effect of the Holy Spirit on me is far from that. My Lord tells me what to say to people, words that have real effects on them. Not just words that just make them feel good, but words that have changed their lives. Things that no human could possibly know to say. Because He has chosen to use me to speak those words to someone, to help them. No scientist or drug can counterfeit that experience of the Holy Spirit.

However, since you do not believe in God, it is no wonder you do not believe in the Holy Spirit and think Him merely a delusion of chemicals in the brain.

[ayin jade]

Your position is that Calvinism may be genuine Christianity. You aren't sure. Well if it may be genuine Christianity, then why wouldn't you have to defend it? Because not all Christians believe it? How is that relevant?

There are some things about Christian beliefs that are crucial to understand, salvationally important things. There are also some issues that are not crucial to understand in order to be saved. Calvanism versus Armenianism is one of the non salvationally important issues. I do not have to defend it since I am still in the process of seeing what the bible has to say on this issue.

[ayin jade]

That IS the point, floating ax! WHY is blood the requirement to atone for sin! God requires perfection, yet he did not create perfect beings. That is my whole point. Have you ever thought past the bible verse long enough to wonder WHY DOES BLOOD ATONE FOR SIN???

We were created with the ability to make a choice. To think and choose our actions. Mankind chose poorly. God could have washed His hands of us and allow us to face the complete consequences for those poor choices, but instead, He provided a way for us to be reconciled with Him.

Lev 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

He set the pattern in Genesis when He skinned animals to provide clothing for Adam and Eve, atoning for their sins.

Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

[ayin jade]

Unbelievable! Well for starters, blood is the requirement for sin.

Are you thinking of Hebrews 9:22, "without shedding of blood is no remission"? If so, as I have pointed out recently, the New Testament is in error when it says this. Blood sacrifice was one way to atone for sin in the Old Testament, but it certainly wasn't the only way.

The sacrifice of flour doesn't involve the shedding of blood, does it?

Lev 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

There were various sacrifices they had to do. Sin, peace offerings etc. There was one offering they had to do each year that would eradicate the sins of Israel. This is the sacrifice that demonstrates why Jesus had to die for our sins, and could take away our sins.

Lev 16:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they had approached the presence of the LORD and died.

Lev 16:2 The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

Lev 16:3 "Aaron shall enter the holy place with this: with a bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

Lev 16:4 "He shall put on the holy linen tunic, and the linen undergarments shall be next to his body, and he shall be girded with the linen sash and attired with the linen turban (these are holy garments). Then he shall bathe his body in water and put them on.

Lev 16:5 "He shall take from the congregation of the sons of Israel two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.

Lev 16:6 "Then Aaron shall offer the bull for the sin offering which is for himself, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household.

Lev 16:7 "He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting.

Lev 16:8 "Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Lev 16:9 "Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering.

Lev 16:10 "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

Lev 16:11 "Then Aaron shall offer the bull of the sin offering which is for himself and make atonement for himself and for his household, and he shall slaughter the bull of the sin offering which is for himself.

Lev 16:12 "He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil.

Lev 16:13 "He shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the ark of the testimony, otherwise he will die.

Lev 16:14 "Moreover, he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; also in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

Lev 16:15 "Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

Lev 16:16 "He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.

Lev 16:17 "When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

Lev 16:18 "Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides.

Lev 16:19 "With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and from the impurities of the sons of Israel consecrate it.

Lev 16:20 "When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat.

Lev 16:21 "Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness.

Lev 16:22 "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

Lev 16:23 "Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there.

Lev 16:24 "He shall bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes, and come forth and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people and make atonement for himself and for the people.

Lev 16:25 "Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

Lev 16:26 "The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp.

Lev 16:27 "But the bull of the sin offering and the goat of the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall be taken outside the camp, and they shall burn their hides, their flesh, and their refuse in the fire.

Lev 16:28 "Then the one who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water, then afterward he shall come into the camp.

Lev 16:29 "This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you;

Lev 16:30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Lev 16:31 "It is to be a sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.

Lev 16:32 "So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father's place shall make atonement: he shall thus put on the linen garments, the holy garments,

Lev 16:33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.

Lev 16:34 "Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year." And just as the LORD had commanded Moses, so he did.

[ayin jade]

she was asking why, in a logical context when thinking about God, the Biblical answer would make sense. She is trying to get you to look at Christianity from the outside, to understand her objections to it - to see why, without faith, such a statement makes little or no sense. But instead of doing this, you are only explaining what you already believe, which isn't really what she's asked you. She knows what you believe. She wants you to tell her how, in logical terms, it is a *reasonable* belief.

Put it another way. You can't answer emerald's 'why' in this matter, because the Bible gives you an answer, and faith doesn't permit you to then question - as she was essentially doing to begin with - whether or not that Biblical answer makes sense on its own.

This is a reasonable belief for us because of the reality of the Lord in our lives. The biblical answer makes sense because of His work in us. What we have a hard time getting you to understand is how real He is in our lives. Not just a feeling. Not just an experience. Not just a happy thought. He is the power who changes our hearts, our lives. This isn

[Copper Scroll]

This, to me, is appalling. Firstly, CS is defining morality exclusively as acts which are obedient to God. Without further explanation, this means that morality could quite easily be arbitrary - which is to say that, potentially, God decided at random which things he liked and which he didn't, irrespective of whether or not these behaviours were actually harmful or in defiance of any instrinsic universal law. Unless Ayin disagrees with this interpretation, it then seems she believes that whatever God says is moral by extension, such as killing children while they sleep.

Just to be clear: you are saying that God can do anything he likes, and even if his actions contradict the morals he has given humankind, he is nonetheless acting morally by default? Because whatever God says is moral? So that killing the firstborn children of the Egyptians is just as moral an act as raising Lazarus from the dead?

I cannot think of any system more abitrary. The only reason you seem to believe it is because, apparently, God created the world and told us he was moral. You believe this is true because God wouldn't lie - but it was God who told you this, too. I tell you what, it seems like I've got to add a new level to be perception of what constitutes faith in God. Not only do you have to have faith in your own judgement - that you've chosen the right religion - you've also got to have faith that if God exists, he is everything he claims to be. No wonder I'm an athiest.

Intentionally or not, Ayin Jade and Copper Scroll, you are setting up God as someone to be obeyed, not because he is good, loving or because his laws constitute the best, kindest and most fruitful way for humans to live, but exclusively because, if he exists and if he is telling the truth, he created the universe. And while I'm very happy and grateful to be alive in the universe, this seems tantamount to saying that because . This is saying that because God created us, he must otherwise be entirely trustworthy, good, just, merciful and true - even if there is evidence to suggest that this is not the case.

Either murder is a sin in all instances, or there are some in which it is justified, or is is never a sin at all. At the moment, we can say that God set out in the Ten Commandments that murder was a sin. So either there's one set of rules for God and one for humanity - in which case, God may legitimately be thought a sinner by our reckoning - or the commandment was never universal - in which case, one might argue that there is nothingintrinsically in the functioning of universe as God created it, and that all morals are therefore applied externally by people.

First, God's Word is universal law, so it cannot defy universal law. The reason why it is universal law is because God is all-knowing, eternal, and (yes) created everything. All of this makes God a far better judge of what is "harmful" than us. The mature among us can very easily accept that sometimes we must take a painful means to a certain end. Well, it is also true that we cannot see every end. We can't see past a certain point. God can.

And I think my point was missed: God's actions cannot "contradict the morals he has given to humankind", because he gave them to humankind. God can do what He wills with His creation. We believe that His will is what is good for His creation. We see no reason to doubt Him. He can make decisions that we are not equipped or qualified to make, because we cannot simply do anything we want with His creation. In humility, we can accept this.

Calling this "arbitrary" is misleading. It suggests that the commandment to love God and to love your neighbor and what "love" in these instances mean change all the time. They don't. In faith, yes, we believe what God says--but God really doesn't say all that much about Himself. God speaks and acts in the Bible and in our lives, and we walk away from the experience having learned something about His character. Saying "God is love", for me is not just a statement of faith; it is not based solely on the Bible but it is partially based on experience.

What use would God have for rules? Would an omnipotent and omniscient being need to be managed in such a way? The Gospels, raise the question of how useful these rules are even for humans. Jesus' main conflict with the religious authorities of his time lies in their mis-application of the rules God set up for them. He frequently looks past the rule itself to the intent behind or meaning underlying the rule--which, ultimately, is love. He cuts past the rules to the love that underlies the rules. If we really and fully understood what love was and how to practice it, we wouldn't even need rules at all. God does understand what love is--not because He says He does--because He has demonstrated it in the person of Jesus. So what use would He have for rules?

[emeraldgirl]

I don't have time right this minute to go back and speak about the points we've been discussing, but I wanted to throw another point out there re: the problem of people who don't know or haven't heard.

While I'm sure there are or have been billions of people who haven't heard and don't know, the more relavant problem is the billions of people who believe they do know, but whom Christians say are not saved. For example, I grew up being told that Catholics were NOT Christians. I was in my 20's before I realized that every sincere Catholic calls themself a Christian and believes they are saved! Every sincere Mormon calls themselve a Christian and believes they are saved! But there's always a fundametalist around the corner, ready to tell them they aren't "really" Christians; they aren't "true" believers. Some believe you aren't "really" saved until you speak in tongues. Some say you aren't "really" saved if you haven't been baptized. So, even those who believe they have salvation could be wrong.

It makes me chuckle slightly, because someone will always post that there are many who will say, "Lord, Lord..." and He will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." But nobody ever thinks they will be the one He's saying he "never knew".

[allmylove4ugrowsdeeper]

I don't have time right this minute to go back and speak about the points we've been discussing, but I wanted to throw another point out there re: the problem of people who don't know or haven't heard.

While I'm sure there are or have been billions of people who haven't heard and don't know, the more relavant problem is the billions of people who believe they do know, but whom Christians say are not saved. For example, I grew up being told that Catholics were NOT Christians. I was in my 20's before I realized that every sincere Catholic calls themself a Christian and believes they are saved! Every sincere Mormon calls themselve a Christian and believes they are saved! But there's always a fundametalist around the corner, ready to tell them they aren't "really" Christians; they aren't "true" believers. Some believe you aren't "really" saved until you speak in tongues. Some say you aren't "really" saved if you haven't been baptized. So, even those who believe they have salvation could be wrong.

It makes me chuckle slightly, because someone will always post that there are many who will say, "Lord, Lord..." and He will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." But nobody ever thinks they will be the one He's saying he "never knew".

The biggest cause of atheism.... is Christians. That is why it is so important for one to have a personal relationship with Christ. It is not about the masses. It is about Him and you.

Be Blessed be encouraged, know you are loved.

Kenny J.

Edited November 8, 2006 by allmylove4ugrowsdeeper