What do you object to regarding Christianity and Jesus?

[Guest]

Help me understand this. I took a 60 percent pay cut to go into ministry. I gave up my retirement benefits as well as good healthcare and dental insurance. So what exactly is it I am getting by controlling people?

Wow... that does not sound very smart. What do you get out of it that makes it worthwhile?

[Openly Curious]

I think it's the epitomy of arrogance to say you "know" for sure that God exists and that nothing will convince you otherwise because of a subjective emotional experience that you are certain is the holy spirit. You're totally closed-minded to the possibility that it's just that, an emotional response to the desire to believe.

Just saying "I know! I know!" isn't a good enough argument, you need to demonstrate how it's different from a child knowing his/her invisible friend is real or every follower of every other religion KNOWING their god or gods are real.

Actually it is humility in knowing that God does exist and not arrogance because one has to acknowledge that He is indeed there even though one cannot physically see Him.

I do not believe God because of an emotional experience as you claim and I don't think that one has an emotional desire to believe. It doesn't come that easy I'm afraid. And desire comes after a belief not before a belief.

I know that there is a Creator because their is "evidence" of a Creator all around me. The earth just didn't get here by itself their has to be a Creator. I can see the physical evidence of it in the world with the eyes and see life within this world that was created as well. My senses show me this. I hear sounds I can hear the dog barking people talking, I can smell things and I can touch things physically with my hands and I can see the creation all around me the blue sky the clouds in the air the trees. I can taste the food that the earth brings forth and so on. One would have to be a fool to deny the evidence in this world that their is not a Creator. All of these things in this world are not imaginary they are tangible and very real they do if fact exist.

The natural laws of the universe are real as well like what goes up must come down. the sun comes up every morning faithfully and then sets in the west that just a fact in our world that you can see. the big powerful ocean raging waves of the sea yet it stays within the shoreline simply because the Creator told it to in the beginning of our world.

Now you may not know who that Creator is but your foolish not to acknowledge a Creator has to exist from the evidence of the things you can see naturally with your eyes. That breath in your body didn't get their by accident that you so freely breath in and out the one who gave can also take it away.

Now if one can believe in the things that exist naturally all around us then why is it hard to believe in the invisible things we cannot see. I can't see the angelic host but I believe it there. I can't see death but I know it is real and a fact of life. But the things you see around you should lead one to search out and find out more of the Creator that does in fact exist to find out who He really is and the word of God will teach us and fill in those blanks in we will acknowlege our Creator and not lie against the truth that shouts at you every single morning and every day of your life the evidence is all around you.

OC

[Guest]

I am evidence. If I were born with the inspiration and knowledge the Holy Spirit gives us along with a, now don't freak out, sort of supernatural power of warmth and love, peace and joy dwelling inside us, then I would never know the difference. The reason I say I am EVIDENCE is because before I asked God to take control of my life, before I believed He sent His only Son to die for my sins, and before I recieved Him by grace, I walked in darkness, without this Spirit inside me. So I DO know the difference as I am evidence of His Holy Spirit dwelling within me. Not by works but by faith. By surrender control. It's a fine line and either you believe it or you dont.

And how is that different than what other religions claim?

I said it before, I will say it again. Narrow is the path that leads to the gates of Heaven and few will follow it but broad is the road that leads to destruction and death and many will be decieved by it.

Riiiight. That is what I would call religious rhetoric.

And yes to EricH I think he said, it's hard to be a Christian. To feel the pain of not being able to share the Lord's joy with everyone. That those out there who are to stubborn or who refuse to look beyond what they can see, touch, feel or hear and really open your eyes and ears to what is not seen and not heard my mere human beings but those gifted with the Spirit.

Again, how is that considerably different than what many other religions claim?

You think we are spending this time defending our faith but what we are really doing is sharing our faith and standing firm in our belief because we have the proof.

Oh, good... what is the proof?

It's not tangible. You can't taste it or mold it.

Oh, I see... it is a feeling... so it is basically useless because any religion can make such claims. I don't think that is what most people would call "proof" because it is not actual "evidence" sufficient to establish a thing as true. Sure, it is "proof" to you, but not to anyone else.

It is so much deeper than any of you are willing to go because you fight it so hard.

Well, I was a Christian for over 30 years, so I don't think that applies to me. (This is where you make the "you were not a 'True Christian'" claim) But, hey, thanks for lumping all non-believers into the same group.

Otherwise why would you be here? To change my mind? Or Jades or any of us who are believers? Don't think so, if that's the case, you are wasting your time but we aren't wasting ours.

Hey, I enjoy debating, too. I have nothing against a god existing, I just have yet to see a credible claim for any specific god's existence.

[Ovedya]

I've written this before, but it bears repeating: One should never use their ears to try and smell the roses.

[Guest LAW]

to Fletch:

My own OPINION from my walk with Christ and the continuing search:

I don't think i'm going to get something tangible to prove the existence of God. I think my walk is purely through faith. and I think the world can only see Christ through His followers. I am His hands, feet, etc. Therefore, I'm called to open myself up, clense myself of as much darkness as i can (and believe me, there's a LOT), see others as Christ sees them and show others what that vision is (that is, themselves clensed and pure).

That may not do it for you. I think each of us must find our own faith. that's why it's so hard to communicate it one to another. we each have to find it on a path that may have others participating with us in the journey, but ultimately comes down to us and God.

I definitely would never trust "feelings" but that's me.

I wish you good journey.

[CSLewis]

Of course there is no evidence of God. By defiition GOd is not a phyical entity and trancsends conventionality. Objective evidence cannot exist for a God that is beyond the natural realm. This is not a problem - our brains are very interesting in which the capacity of fatih and in many cases the need for a structural religion surpasses our need for objective evidence for the "unseen". Either you believe in God or you don't there is only the great mystery of faith that could change you viewpoint. The mystery of faith cannot be understood in a conventional sense but must be experienced. This experience only occurs when we allow our objections to be over took with the subjective and emotional experience. Much in the same way brains function under the influence of hallucenegenic substances. The "mystical" experience happens and is "true" to the person that it occured however these experiences are subjective and no words can explain these subjective and mystical events. I have found in Christianity something that is different in other religions- that first is last that humility and servitude are not only good traits but exemplified by God himself.

Christianity not only satisfies the subjective regions of the brain but compensates though theology the objective regions also. Is it "true"? Yes and I hope that you will one day experience the fullness of Christ in your life.

[Guest]

I don't think i'm going to get something tangible to prove the existence of God. I think my walk is purely through faith. and I think the world can only see Christ through His followers. I am His hands, feet, etc. Therefore, I'm called to open myself up, clense myself of as much darkness as i can (and believe me, there's a LOT), see others as Christ sees them and show others what that vision is (that is, themselves clensed and pure).

I see. So the proof of a God's existence is through the works of his followers. Right. So if I see a Muslim doing good works I can also assume that his god is real. And If I see a Mormon doing good works I will know the Mormon found the right god. And if I see an atheist doing good works I will know there is no god. Got it. Thanks.

That may not do it for you.

Ya, I guess not.

I think each of us must find our own faith. that's why it's so hard to communicate it one to another. we each have to find it on a path that may have others participating with us in the journey, but ultimately comes down to us and God.

I definitely would never trust "feelings" but that's me.

I wish you good journey.

So, "faith" is the way to truth. Whatever I put my faith in must then be true. It is not a feeling but the act of placing "faith"? Evidence is irrelevant because with actual evidence I don't need religious faith. Faith proves itself true by having circular faith. And if I put faith in no god, that faith must also be true. Ok, thanks.

[Guest]

I've written this before, but it bears repeating: One should never use their ears to try and smell the roses.

I use my five senses to experience the world around me. I can smell a rose, touch a rose, see a rose, taste a rose and perhaps hear a rose, but I can do none of those things with BibleGod, yet, I am expected to believe he is still there. This doesn't make sense to me.

[Guest]

Of course there is no evidence of God. By defiition GOd is not a phyical entity and trancsends conventionality. Objective evidence cannot exist for a God that is beyond the natural realm.

I totally disagree. God must be able to make himself known in the physical world. He has supposedly done it many times before and people often claim he is still doing that today. I see no reason to assume that an all powerful God that supposedly created me and the physical Universe can't make himself known to me in an irrefutable, objective way. To say God cannot transcend his own creation is to place him in a human sized box... after all, you think he came to Earth as Jesus, right?

This is not a problem - our brains are very interesting in which the capacity of fatih and in many cases the need for a structural religion surpasses our need for objective evidence for the "unseen". Either you believe in God or you don't there is only the great mystery of faith that could change you viewpoint. The mystery of faith cannot be understood in a conventional sense but must be experienced. This experience only occurs when we allow our objections to be over took with the subjective and emotional experience. Much in the same way brains function under the influence of hallucenegenic substances. The "mystical" experience happens and is "true" to the person that it occured however these experiences are subjective and no words can explain these subjective and mystical events. I have found in Christianity something that is different in other religions- that first is last that humility and servitude are not only good traits but exemplified by God himself.

I see religious faith as something people believe in because they want something to be true. The fact that virtually all religious beliefs require a component of faith should be pretty evident in it's inability to discern reality because these beliefs are often mutually exclusive, even though they feel real to each believer.

Christianity not only satisfies the subjective regions of the brain but compensates though theology the objective regions also. Is it "true"? Yes and I hope that you will one day experience the fullness of Christ in your life.

I agree that Christianity is one of the more evolved religions, and thus, is one of the most accepted. So is it "true"? I see no reason it is more true than any other religious belief taken on "faith".

[Guest LAW]

To Fletch:

You seem angry that i cannot offer you "proof" of the God of my faith. when i talk about each person finding out truth on their own, i perhaps implied, but did not mean to, that each person's concept of god is what is true for them. I believe there is a spiritual being who is God. I hear His voice and experience His truth through the bible and through His followers. Sometimes i even experience it through non-believers. what i cannot do is transfer my faith to another. we have to each one find that truth ourselves. that's why the church is always only one generation away from extinction.

As to the different denominations in Christianity, how can any finite human possibly "understand" the God of creation? Silly me if i think i can get it right and stupid me if i think i am able to adequately explain the faith within me. I believe my faith is a gift from the HS.

As to believing in the God of whoever does good works, there is something inherent in man that strives toward giving to others through wanting to connect. Why should Christians be any different than any other sect in that concept? Christians are different in that we believe that Jesus Christ came to save sinners and we believe that we are saved only through His grace. Just because i'm a Christian doesn't mean that i will be free of recurrent sin in my life or that i won't wake up grouchy or that i will necessarily be more generous to others than i was before. Do you want perfect followers. certainly won't find them in any church i've ever attended.