What do you object to regarding Christianity and Jesus?

[Joshua-777]

Why not just list to us the things you find immoral? Tell us what parts you dont like. Lets discuss those things.

Trivializing Life on Earth

When one considers Earth to be an imperfect shadow of the heavens, Earth and all things therein seem to lose their value. The planet we live on and the life we share it with are considerably less important if we think an eternal plane awaits us thereafter. Countless clerics and worshipers have forgone earthly pleasures, even innocent ones, in anticipation of the eternal afterlife. To me this is crazy.

Christianity has also traditionally lacked respect and responsibility for the natural world. Animals are not seen by the Bible as a form of life so much as soulless life-like objects. Some Christians even think the entire natural world has been designed for our disposal. The Christian objectification of nature combined with science's invasive technologies have helped us devastate the Earth. It is amazing how many people think we really have no responsibility to the planet on which we live. By contrast, many other religions encourage respect of the environment and animals. See Buddhist and Hindu ahimsa, good treatment for all living things. While in Christianity, animals are soulless and even unfeeling, other religions accurately recognize our connection to other life--we are animals, after all.

I have a lot of problems with Christianity. And even if you write off all of these problems as malpractice, or corruption, or "false faith", it doesn't change the fact that Christianity is very easily corruptible. It is a weapon as well as a tool.

Well I am a Christian and I very much respect animals and earth. They are all created by God. Here is something I posted elsewhere:

I just don't see how anyone can look at God's creation in all

it's glory and splendor and not see the creator behind it all. I have seen beautiful endless mountains covered in tall pine

trees, I have seen the sunrise over water and the beautiful reflection on the water. I have seen the beautiful colors of all the

leaves in the fall and how so intricately detailed each one is if you stop and take the time to look. I have seen gorgeous

flowing waterfalls and watched waves lapping at the beach.

I grew up in Maine and I lived in Idaho for a few years. We are big on camping, we go as much as we can. And I

cease to be amazed at what an amazing artist our God is. I was hoping to post some beautiful pictures here, but it seems I

can't. Do you ever stop and look at mushrooms? There are such a variety and they are so beautiful. They are truly art, as all

of God's creation is. There never has been and never will be a more talented artist than God!

Also, we use cloth diapers, recycle, use environmentally friendly household products, (such as Seventh Generation and Bio-Kleen)buy local produce as much as possible, only only free-range meat, never use any poisons on our lawn, oh, and did I mention I (a Christian!) worked for the Humane Society for 3 years until the day I gave birth to my first born?

We frequently go on nature hikes, sometimes we are out there by 7am so as to see as many birds, deer, turkey, etc. as possible. One time we were on one of our very early hikes and a turkey vulture landed on a branch just a few feet above us and looked down at us with one of his ugly eyes, it was AWESOME! WE have several different kinds of bird/squirrel feeders at our house and my youngest who is 2 can already name several of the bird species. We have rescued injured wildlife on the side of the road. Either by staying with them and covering them with an army blanket we keep in the van specially for this purpose, and staying with them until a police officer puts them out of their misery (I once waited almost 2 hours). Or if the animal is small enough, we take them to a rehabber. I keep disposable gloves in the van because I actually remove fairly fresh roadkill from the roadside so that vultures etc. do not get injured trying to eat roadkill, or poisoned from the salt that is put on the roads in the winter.

Yes I look forward to being in heaven someday, but that does not mean I am not capable of enjoying and having respect for this part of God's creation while I am here.

Amen, amen

[ayin jade]

The Hypocricy of Worshipers

Jesus was a truly great man. "Turn the other cheek." "Love thine enemies." These kinds of sayings were unheard of in the Middle East during Jesus' lifetime. His revolutionary teachings on compassion have led some Buddhists to consider Christ a bodhisattva, an enlightened being like the Buddha who, out of compassion, temporarily forgoes nirvana in order to save others. This man got Christianity off to a great start.

But, despite everything Jesus said, Christianity led a bloody history thereafter. It not only served the oppressed, but the oppressors as well. The crusades. The inquisition. The holocaust. Christ would not have condoned these things, yet they all occurred in his name. How did these things happen? Even in modern times, in America, Christians largely supported the war in Iraq at its outset. Christians. Supporting war.

I will respond to all objections bit by bit throughout today.

My sister in law was kidnapped and assaulted by a serial killer. She was shot twice in the head and left for dead. It took a lot of effort, but I was able to forgive the person who did this to her. That is what the Lord wants from Christians. I know of many stories of Christians who have lost loved ones through tragic circumstances and were able to immediately forgive those who caused the harm. Right after 9/11, I so wanted to hate those who caused the murders of so many people. I wanted to hate al qaeda. I wanted to pray for their destruction. The Lord wouldnt let me. He had me pray for their salvation instead. He wanted me to let it go and not be consumed by hate. He wanted me to love them even as I love myself and those around me. This is what we are commanded to do.

Nazi Germany was not Christian. There are plenty of quotes from those times where Christianity was criticized by the germans as being stupid and something that needed to be erased. Some may claim to be Christian, but then again you can claim to be a car but it wont make you one. Look at the fruit. Nazi Germany was consumed with hate for Jews. What does the bible tells us about hate?

1John 4:20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. For if he does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

1Jo 3:15 Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him.

1Jo 2:9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in darkness until now.

1Jo 2:10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no offense in him.

1Jo 2:11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because darkness has blinded his eyes.

Jesus tells us what the greatest commandmants are.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Look at Jesus, not at Christians. You admire His teachings. Do you want Him as Lord and Savior?

[ayin jade]

In another thread I posted to TheProcess

Why not just list to us the things you find immoral? Tell us what parts you dont like. Lets discuss those things.

Presumably you believe that: (a) God is perfectly good, and (b) everything in the Bible is in keeping with this. (Correct me if I am wrong.) Let me ask you, are there some things that if God did them, they would be immoral? If so, what things would be immoral for God to do?

There is nothing that He could do that would be immoral. Is there somethings He does that you find immoral? Lets discuss this.

[ayin jade]

Dividing God's Children

Christianity has many sects, and Christianity itself could be considered a radical sect of Judaism. Even though all these sects focus on the Bible, some of their beliefs seem irreconciliable. In fact, many sects have killed one another based on relatively small differences in doctrine and ritual. Oftentimes different sects will claim the others are worshiping an entirely different God, rather than worshiping the same God a different way. Isn't Christianity supposed to unite people, if not through worship, through love? How, then, has it done such a good job in tearing people apart?

The devil has done a good job of tearing people apart, not Christ. The bible warns us that there would be wolves who come in seeking to harm us.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30 Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.

1Pe 5:8 Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour;

There is a verse, that I cant find offhand, about not arguing over disputable stuff. Shamefully we have not done that. The fault is not in Christ, but in ourselves. That Christians are flawed and mess up doesnt change who Jesus is, or what He has done. It only means Christians fall short of the Lord in our sins. It is why Jesus came to earth to begin with. Because we are not perfect.

[Joshua-777]

WOw Jades God some impressive posts

[ayin jade]

Trivializing Life on Earth

When one considers Earth to be an imperfect shadow of the heavens, Earth and all things therein seem to lose their value. The planet we live on and the life we share it with are considerably less important if we think an eternal plane awaits us thereafter. Countless clerics and worshipers have forgone earthly pleasures, even innocent ones, in anticipation of the eternal afterlife. To me this is crazy.

I value earth. This world is something the Lord gave us, and we messed it up. Yes we have an eternal life in Him. Yes, eternal life with the Lord is of great importance to us. We also have stewardship of the earth and should do our part to take care of it. As for foregoing earthly pleasures? I have joy in my life. Im not miserable for having Jesus in my life. I enjoy the little things much more because I have Him in my life. We are told to be content in our lives, with what we have. Yes, we are to turn our backs to sin. That doesnt mean we live miserable lives with no pleasure in them. It just means we have redefined what makes us happy and found greater joy in our Lord.

Christianity has also traditionally lacked respect and responsibility for the natural world. Animals are not seen by the Bible as a form of life so much as soulless life-like objects. Some Christians even think the entire natural world has been designed for our disposal.

Some Christians might feel this way, as will some nonbelievers too. I have always had respect and care for the natural world. Having the world given to us by the Lord doesnt mean that we have the right to bleed it dry and use it irresponsibly. I live in an area where water needs to be conserved (a desert). Most of my neighbors have high water use lawns and plants. I have a gorgeous garden that is low water use. My city has even commented to me about how little water I use compared to other households. Being Christian doesnt mean we can cease to take care of what we have.

The Christian objectification of nature combined with science's invasive technologies have helped us devastate the Earth.

And all those scientists and company heads are Christian right? Please, that is a rather weak argument dont you think? Based on this argument, China should be completely free of pollution. But they are not.

I have a lot of problems with Christianity. And even if you write off all of these problems as malpractice, or corruption, or "false faith", it doesn't change the fact that Christianity is very easily corruptible. It is a weapon as well as a tool.

Everything is easily corruptable. Why not go for the only incorruptable being--Jesus.

Mat 6:19 Do not lay up treasures on earth for yourselves, where moth and rust corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.

Mat 6:20 But lay up treasures in Heaven for yourselves, where neither moth nor rust corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

[ayin jade]

The Lord gives the words Josh. All praise and glory to Him.

[Joshua-777]

The Lord gives the words Josh. All praise and glory to Him.

Amen

[Copper Scroll]

Runner's high, I haven't read all of your posts on this forum, but this is by far the most substantial out of the one's I've read. No more complaints about beating around the bush from me....

I have a lot of qualms with Christianity and the behavior of Christians, but I'll just start with my biggest one:

The Hypocricy of Worshipers

Jesus was a truly great man. "Turn the other cheek." "Love thine enemies." These kinds of sayings were unheard of in the Middle East during Jesus' lifetime. His revolutionary teachings on compassion have led some Buddhists to consider Christ a bodhisattva, an enlightened being like the Buddha who, out of compassion, temporarily forgoes nirvana in order to save others. This man got Christianity off to a great start.

But, despite everything Jesus said, Christianity led a bloody history thereafter. It not only served the oppressed, but the oppressors as well. The crusades. The inquisition. The holocaust. Christ would not have condoned these things, yet they all occurred in his name. How did these things happen? Even in modern times, in America, Christians largely supported the war in Iraq at its outset. Christians. Supporting war.

Selective Interpretation

I think this next problem might very well explain the last one. Christianity isn't just about Christ, it's also about the Old Testament and other biblical writings, which were not so peaceful and loving. It seems like people pick out whatever passages support their motives. Seen this way, Christianity doesn't really change worshipers for the better, it just crystalizes their tendencies, for better or worse. It gives people I would consider "evil" a sense of self-righteousness because it can be selectively used to "justify" evil acts as well as good ones. It has been used for centuries to demonize one's enemy in war, so that they can be fought and killed as though they were subhuman. I think Christianity is often used to destroy the sense of morality that I think underlies--and predates--all religions. It can actually make people and peoples worse.

And, to some extent, I believe it has.

Dividing God's Children

Christianity has many sects, and Christianity itself could be considered a radical sect of Judaism. Even though all these sects focus on the Bible, some of their beliefs seem irreconciliable. In fact, many sects have killed one another based on relatively small differences in doctrine and ritual. Oftentimes different sects will claim the others are worshiping an entirely different God, rather than worshiping the same God a different way. Isn't Christianity supposed to unite people, if not through worship, through love? How, then, has it done such a good job in tearing people apart?

I pretty much agree with all of this. Jesus Christ, however, cannot be blamed for any of this--including the abuse of his name. Christianity is supposed to be (as it has pretty consistently claimed it is supposed to be) about following Christ. You have pointed out instances when Christians have clearly not followed Jesus' example and have decided what God's Word should say on their own. It is obvious (to us, anyway) that these Christians have failed in their role.

Let me say, though, that it is (understandably) much easier for a Christian to accept criticism based on Christ's teachings from a Christian than from someone who doesn't even claim to be a follower of Christ. How can a non-Christian judge a Christian on Christian standards. It's like someone who is not in your industry trying to tell you how to run your business, or someone with no kids at all telling you how to raise kids. It's arrogant.

I found the next part of your post more interesting:

Trivializing Life on Earth

When one considers Earth to be an imperfect shadow of the heavens, Earth and all things therein seem to lose their value. The planet we live on and the life we share it with are considerably less important if we think an eternal plane awaits us thereafter. Countless clerics and worshipers have forgone earthly pleasures, even innocent ones, in anticipation of the eternal afterlife. To me this is crazy.

Christianity has also traditionally lacked respect and responsibility for the natural world. Animals are not seen by the Bible as a form of life so much as soulless life-like objects. Some Christians even think the entire natural world has been designed for our disposal. The Christian objectification of nature combined with science's invasive technologies have helped us devastate the Earth. It is amazing how many people think we really have no responsibility to the planet on which we live. By contrast, many other religions encourage respect of the environment and animals. See Buddhist and Hindu ahimsa, good treatment for all living things. While in Christianity, animals are soulless and even unfeeling, other religions accurately recognize our connection to other life--we are animals, after all.

I don't know of any place in the Bible that says that we should abuse nature or that animals are worthless. In Genesis, the human is charged with taking care of the natural world.

On the part about devaluing the natural world in favor of the afterlife: In the Gospels, the "world" we see devalued in favor of "eternal life" or "heaven" is the man-made world--society as made up of (man-made) social statuses and material possessions and material wealth. Jesus doesn't tell the rich man that cutting down a tree and polluting the ocean was righteous. He told the rich man that giving up his material wealth and material possessions and his high place in society was righteous. In this context, the world is not the mountains, the seas, the birds, and the trees--It is the cars and clothes we use to prove ourselves worthy... when our true worth lies in how close we are to God.

God is eternal, loving, and all-powerful. Societies and material possessions are anything but. But I think most people love their material possessions and their social rank (their ability to place themselves above and apart from others) more than they love God. Most people love what other people can do for them more than they love the people themselves. So, yes, I value the world less than my eternal relationship with God.

I have a lot of problems with Christianity. And even if you write off all of these problems as malpractice, or corruption, or "false faith", it doesn't change the fact that Christianity is very easily corruptible. It is a weapon as well as a tool.

Characterized, as a thing... as a religion, Christianity is corruptible. But name anything that is not corruptible.

Ideally, though, Christianity is more than a religion... more than a thing. It should be a relationship with God, which a free person can be led astray from and can turn is back on... and can be tricked or trick himself into thinking that he has not been led astray or turned his back. But as long as Christians claim the Word of God to be the foundation of their faith and relationship with God... and as long as Christians claim Jesus Christ as their savior and their guide, honest and open Christians can only stray so far. They may stray much of the time, but ultimately they will be directed back to the Gospel.

You find no fault in the Gospel, as far as I can tell. You find fault only in the imperfections of humans who call themselves Christian. Calling oneself Christian is not a claim to being perfect. So ultimately you are judging people with a bad standard. Judging people itself is un-Christ-like, so judging Christ's followers without claiming to be one yourself is particularly ironic.

[Joshua-777]

Amen Copper