Worthy News: Cloning human embryos becomes 'constitutional right&#

[CSLewis]

Just because nobody loves or wants these embryos doesn't negate that they are alive. Just because there are sick children dosn't give us the right to kill embryos to achieve a possible solution. Just because a human is undeveloped doesn't mean it isn't a human.

It is unfortunate that people die but why should we kill innocents so that we can find a cure? Should we purge humanity so that we can live longer? I'd rather die by myself than take more down with me. At least that embryo will have a chance to grow and live a normal life. But it is a mess, stem cell research is not the answer.

[Hypathia]

What you need to understand is that you're repeating what a handful of self-appointed godfathers of evangelicalism have said. The fact is the smallest cell of biological life in a woman's body is a single egg; in a man's body it's a single sperm and NOBODY knows when the soul begins. I don't think it starts at conception because I've had a miscarriage and I never thought "God" killed my baby's "soul". I thought it was just an act of nature; no soul ended per se.

Umbilical cord stem cells have proven to be valuable but not more valuable. The hard study and research has only been going on for about 9 years and the embryonic stem-cells hold the most promise because they're blank. Be careful what you believe coming out of the religious right; you're the one buying into "lies"; not me.

And be careful how you repeat and throw around the word "life". Biological life and the soul mean two different things. When people repeat the phrase "life begins at conception" what they're really saying is that "the soul begins at conception" and they have no way of knowing this one way or the other. Not all Christians agree with this concept and people of other faiths also disagree. Did you know that Jews think it is inhumane not to pursue embryonic stem-cell research? They say they have no problem "playing God" since God is good and we should strive to do good things.

God tells us in the Bible that he knows us in our Mothers Womb. That means that we have a soul in our mothers womb. The only way around this is to declare that you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. My wife and I had a tuble pregenancy and the Baby died. I am sure his/her preciouse little soul is in good care by our almighty creator. By the Way, a Jews is just as lost as any other human that has not made Jesus their lord and master, so no it does not surprise me that they would hold the view you stated. And no, you are the one being deceived. Do some actual research, I have. Umbilical cord research is proving to have much much more potential the Embryonic. The facts are there you just have to actually look.

God Bless,

K.D.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it; that does not make it a fact anymore than my opinion makes it fact. I will tell you my opinion and my reasoning for why I think I'm right though.

The Bible verse you are referring to was God saying he knew who Jeremiah was in his mother's womb. These discarded embryos never even make it to the womb. AND in several places in the Bible (the old testament) God commands the Hebrews to tear the unborn from their pregnant mother's wombs. There are also several verses that say the soul begins with the first breath. So what we have, all verses considered, are some contradictions, nothing concrete to base the moment of a soul's entrance into a biological body (pro-lifers like to pick the ones that correspond to their preconceived beliefs while pro-choicers do the same thing from the other side). Old timers believed it [life; the soul] occurred during a time called "the quickening". Of course that's just a wive's tale too but it may have some merit because that "quickening sensation" would probably correspond to when the fetus starts to have brain activity. I remember the moment of quickening with both of my live born children; I didn't experience it at all with the child I miscarried so I don't think my miscarried baby ever had a soul. So I disagree with the person who said my miscarried baby had a soul that is now in heaven as well as these destroyed invitro zygotes. You have nothing rational to base that assumption on imo so I disagree with you wholeheartedly there.

[Hypathia]

Just because nobody loves or wants these embryos doesn't negate that they are alive. Just because there are sick children dosn't give us the right to kill embryos to achieve a possible solution. Just because a human is undeveloped doesn't mean it isn't a human.

It is unfortunate that people die but why should we kill innocents so that we can find a cure? Should we purge humanity so that we can live longer? I'd rather die by myself than take more down with me. At least that embryo will have a chance to grow and live a normal life. But it is a mess, stem cell research is not the answer.

If you sincerely believe that then do what I suggested in my first post. Get your pastors and leaders to publically come out against invitro-fertilization; encourage them to call for a ban on it ASAP. Get them to preach out against invitro in church and to council couples against it.

Good luck with that but take my word for it; it'll be a cold day in "you know where" before the christian leadership does that; they'll stick to the embryonic stem-cell topic so they and their flock can have their cake and eat it too and keep the money rolling into the ministry.

Hypocrisy at it's worst.

Edited November 10, 2006 by Hypathia

[CSLewis]

Actually my voice is small in my church, I have debated with several but most have similar viewpoints as your own. In fact the 75th General Convention took a vote to do just the opposite and supported stem cell research, along with gay marriage and the ordination of gays as priests and bishops, so I am in the vast minority in my stance.

[Hypathia]

Job 3:3Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

11Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

12Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

13For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

14With kings and counsellors of the earth, which build desolate places for themselves;

15Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

16Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

17There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

18There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

19The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

20Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;

21Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; 22Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

Notice this: Job says that "Untimely births", that is fetuses that are miscarried, are alive in the after life "at rest". Notice also, Job said he was a "man child" at the point of conception. Not at the point of birth.

Even though he is cursing himself in these passages and wondering why God bothered to create him at all, or why he didn't just kill him the moment he was conceived, yet this passage clearly shows that biblically zygotes ARE human beings and have a soul and spirit.

If the stretch you are attempting to make here is true; it means that God's murders innocent souls in the womb every time a woman miscarries. It also means in a sense that God gave my child a fatal disease; that God has decided to strike down my innocent child after birth rather than before.

BTW - Science has proven that all babies start out as female.

[CSLewis]

There you have it - you just referred to an embryo as a baby. What you said is true (about embryonic development) except that it is an embryo and not a baby - but distinguishing the difference is merely a matter of terminology- both are alive and have souls.

[Hypathia]

There you have it - you just referred to an embryo as a baby. What you said is true (about embryonic development) except that it is an embryo and not a baby - but distinguishing the difference is merely a matter of terminology- both are alive and have souls.

Embryo and zygote are the various stages one goes thru on the way to beoming a full human being [i.e. a baby]. I usually just refer to a pregnancy as a baby regardless; that's how I refer to a pregnancy in all stages. I do not refer to a zygote, or embryo in a petrie dish as a baby; never have.....it does not compute. ----- I disagree that each stage has a soul present within even with a normal pregnancy. Early on we don't even have a boy or a girl yet; that too takes time.

Edited November 10, 2006 by Hypathia

[Hypathia]

Don't attack my credibility. I'm speaking from the heart and the mind. -- Genetically speaking the blueprint code is there, but the work still has to be done to reach the final product.

You neglected to address this:

If the stretch you are attempting to make here is true; it means that God's murders innocent souls in the womb every time a woman miscarries. It also means in a sense that God gave my child a fatal disease; that God has decided to strike down my innocent child after birth rather than before.

Would you like to do that now?

Edited November 10, 2006 by Hypathia

[Candi770]

So is it a chicken or is it human????

[CSLewis]

There are anamolies to the above, in some rare cases chromosomes have had opposite outcomes and the (male sexual organ - edited by moderator) is never formed during the development, though the chromosomes show a male the outcome is a female. This doesn't happen the other way around though. I think a specific enzyme is needed in order to stimulate the growth of the uterus into a (male sexual organ edited by mod) and sometimes due to certain environmental influences the sex remains female in spite of chromosomes. That is why we all start off as girls.