Burden of proof

[mobile21]

Well, the thing is I believe the "modern atheism" or secularism or whatever you want to call it is a direct result of the moral depravity. Of course if I would've practiced an abortion, I would be "an atheist" too because it would be a pretty silly thing to believe in something that condemns me so it's really a no-brainer.

Besides, I don't believe in Luther's "personal interpretation" of the scriptures so I know people will be judged according to their good or evil hearts and this necessarily means that if a "proclaimed atheist" does good in life and defeats the evil in it he'll be saved so, like I said, I don't worry too much about if a person "believes on an intellectual level" in God or doesn't. I care mostly about the objective parameters of salvation.

[sagz4Christ]

Well, the thing is I believe the "modern atheism" or secularism or whatever you want to call it is a direct result of the moral depravity. Of course if I would've practiced an abortion, I would be "an atheist" too because it would be a pretty silly thing to believe in something that condemns me so it's really a no-brainer.

Besides, I don't believe in Luther's "personal interpretation" of the scriptures so I know people will be judged according to their good or evil hearts and this necessarily means that if a "proclaimed atheist" does good in life and defeats the evil in it he'll be saved so, like I said, I don't worry too much about if a person "believes on an intellectual level" in God or doesn't. I care mostly about the objective parameters of salvation.

I would like to hear how Christ fits in to this "plan" of salvation.

Then I would love to hear your interpretation of Rev 20:15.

[Fovezer]

Well, the thing is I believe the "modern atheism" or secularism or whatever you want to call it is a direct result of the moral depravity. Of course if I would've practiced an abortion, I would be "an atheist" too because it would be a pretty silly thing to believe in something that condemns me so it's really a no-brainer.

Now this is just wong. Atheism is simply the lack of believe in a god. No more, no less. And how am I deprived of morals? Are you saying only atheists get abortions?

Besides, I don't believe in Luther's "personal interpretation" of the scriptures so I know people will be judged according to their good or evil hearts and this necessarily means that if a "proclaimed atheist" does good in life and defeats the evil in it he'll be saved so, like I said, I don't worry too much about if a person "believes on an intellectual level" in God or doesn't. I care mostly about the objective parameters of salvation.

I think that this is how it should be also. Why banish a good person to hell just because they don't hold the same set of beliefs? According to most Christians, if a rapist or murderer repents before he dies, he will go to heaven, but if a atheist is good his whole life and just doesn't believe, he goes to hell. Sounds fair to me. That is why I like your interpretation.

[mobile21]

Well, the thing is I believe the "modern atheism" or secularism or whatever you want to call it is a direct result of the moral depravity. Of course if I would've practiced an abortion, I would be "an atheist" too because it would be a pretty silly thing to believe in something that condemns me so it's really a no-brainer.

Besides, I don't believe in Luther's "personal interpretation" of the scriptures so I know people will be judged according to their good or evil hearts and this necessarily means that if a "proclaimed atheist" does good in life and defeats the evil in it he'll be saved so, like I said, I don't worry too much about if a person "believes on an intellectual level" in God or doesn't. I care mostly about the objective parameters of salvation.

I would like to hear how Christ fits in to this "plan" of salvation.

Then I would love to hear your interpretation of Rev 20:15.

Christ fits in my interpretation because Christ is reality. Not because "an atheist doesn't believe in God" means that there is no more Christ. If that "atheist at an intellectual level" is truly good and is saved, he is saved because of Christ.

Remember that every person who didn't know about Christ in his life will know about Him in his particular judgement. If an "atheist" could avoid judgement then that would be cheating wouldn't it?.

[mobile21]

Fovezer:

Now this is just wong. Atheism is simply the lack of believe in a god. No more, no less. And how am I deprived of morals? Are you saying only atheists get abortions?

You may not be deprived of morals but most "atheists" I know are. They decided to "not believe in God" because now they think they can sin and don't worry about it.

Human psychology is a very primitive thing indeed.

Why banish a good person to hell just because they don't hold the same set of beliefs? According to most Christians, if a rapist or murderer repents before he dies, he will go to heaven, but if a atheist is good his whole life and just doesn't believe, he goes to hell.

Luther's personal interpretation of the New Testament is not what most christians believe. It's very unfair to judge all christians by what Luther said and to ignore that before him there were 1500 years of christianity (and after him most of us remain faithful to those 1500 years btw).

I can't stress enough the point that the Bible never said a person would be condemned because of his intellectual beliefs. Like I said in another thread, if salvation would depend directly on the "degree of knowledge someone has of God" then Satan would be the first to be saved because he KNOWS who God is but that ain't so.

[mobile21]

Find out what? That there is a god? That there isn't a god? That the real god is Allah? Zues? Thor? Christian God? What? You cannot say you know for sure, because that is pretty arrongant.

When you die you will see saints and then you'll see angels but then you'll see someone who is not a saint and is not an angel. That someone is God.

As for "finding out what His name is" don't worry, God has no name and that's because He doesn't have to "identify Himself" simply because there is none other like Him. He is the absolute so no human being can know His name.

[Guest Danielangel]

As for "finding out what His name is" don't worry, God has no name and that's because He doesn't have to "identify Himself" simply because there is none other like Him. He is the absolute so no human being can know His name.

Humans have tried to give Him many names over the years... The Hebrew name was literally unpronouncable. just wanted to insert my two-cents worth

[Guest shiloh357]

I know people will be judged according to their good or evil hearts and this necessarily means that if a "proclaimed atheist" does good in life and defeats the evil in it he'll be saved so, like I said, I don't worry too much about if a person "believes on an intellectual level" in God or doesn't. I care mostly about the objective parameters of salvation.

Mobile,

You are flat wrong. We are judged by whether we put our faith in Christ or not. You are crosswise with the word of God. It is written, "He who has the Son, has life, and He that has not the Son of God has not life." 1 John 5:12. To teach that an atheist can be saved based upon good deeds is pure heresy.

[mobile21]

Mobile,

You are flat wrong. We are judged by whether we put our faith in Christ or not. You are crosswise with the word of God. It is written, "He who has the Son, has life, and He that has not the Son of God has not life." 1 John 5:12. To teach that an atheist can be saved based upon good deeds is pure heresy.

If you uphold that doctrine Shiloh, then you MUST THINK all the jews will go to hell right............... .

Well, you are entitled to your opinion but that's not what I believe based on the Holy Writ.

[irishcowboy]

you need to read about both the judgements.....

they are both in the Bible. read about them for your self.

one is for the follower, and their rewards, (which have been stashed away in heaven, not on earth )

the other is for the Non-believer ( thats right NON ) and their rewards, ( which is the firey lake )

go ahead, read about them.... both of them, might clear things up....

you can be mr. nice guy to all people, mr congeniality, mr do gooder, treat every one right, but if you do not have Jesus, you have nothing....... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING....

AND THAT INCLUDES ETERNAL LIFE.......

very simple verse, John 3:16, every one uses it.....

................who so ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life..................

wow, says who so ever believes in Him, believes in Jesus , shall not perish.......

it dont say if you believe or dont believe, you will have everlasting life, says if you believe........

the teachings that are about every one will be saved is wrong...... that is false teachings.....

the teachings that say we can save our selves by our works, by the way we treat others is false teachings.....

we can not save our selves, no mattter what we do.... or dont do.....

we can go thru life not breaking a single law, whether of God or man, and with out Jesus, we willl perish in the lake with the rest of the non-believers......

we can go thru life broke, giving every thing we make to the poor, not even having a house, giving millions and millions away to the poor, and even doing it out of love, but with out Jesus, we have nothing... we have eternal death, not eternal life......

READ THE BIBLE, IT SAYS IT ALL IN BLACK ( AND RED ) AND WHITE......

dont go with false teachings..... dont be a false teacher....

mike