Confused

[CSLewis]

^ I don't remember that being true, about Jesus being her only child. I thought that in one part of Jesus' life, during His ministry, when He was at a house out of town, maybe just before that man was lifted down through the roof to lay before Jesus, Jesus' mother and brother(s) and maybe sister were outside wanting to see Him and when a disciple told Jesus of this, He said something about family being those who were loyal or close to Him? *must try to find the Scriptures exactly*

Anyway, to the original question, I think in part you can find reasons why many were upset with the Catholic Church in history, even at the time before Luther and leading right up to him, and those reasons kind of could explain the animosity or dislike of the Church today. I mean, for instance, right after the Black Death, people started losing faith in the Church and were angry at the priests for how they had abandoned people when they were dropping dead like flies. Basically, that's something that I learned recently in respect to some European countries....

And then there's that part about having to buy notes (indulgences?) from priests that would sort of free people from purgatory or whever else they might be, but it's pretty well known anyway and a lot of priests before Luther posted the 95 theses (sp?) had begun to abuse even that abusive system. Witnessing one of those priests selling those notes is supposedly one serious event that really upset him and motivated him to do what he did. I don't mean to attack the Church but like has already been mentioned, there are a lot of tenets to it that people don't agree with, like doing good works as a necessary part of salvation.

The reformers were not without there own flaws - many were murdered by the early reformers and many churches burned and people drowned simply because they did not want to change. The Roman Catholic Church became a political kingdom and had its own army if you will.

The Catholic Church was heading towards an inward split over the music in the liturgy as well. Many wanted the intricate music of the mass to be in the venecular and in many voices, but the Church decided on a simpler liturgy to be standardized- there were many reasons that the Reformation happened some political, some spiritual, some liturgical,

[Floatingaxe]

For example:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Baptism is not for infants, but for the believer. Infants do not believe, but are considered "under the blood" and they have a home in heaven with Jesus.

[Floatingaxe]

There are definately similarities in the liturgy of the Catholic Church and Episcopal Church that I attend but one thing I can't get over- Catholics believe that Mary remained a virgin but this view is not biblical (the bible doesn't say) - does this view come from an Augustinian view of sexuality? It just seems to make sex something that is bad - Is this why priests and nuns are not allowed to marry?

Peace be with you

The Catholic Church teaches that sex is a beautiful expression of love between a husband and wife---not something "bad".

The perpetual virginity of Mary is based in Scripture.

For example:

Luke 2: 41-51 at age 12, evidently Jesus is the only son of Mary

Mark 6:3 Jesus is called the son of Mary; not a son of Mary

*****************************************************

Mt 27: 56 Mary the mother of James and Joseph

is also

John 19: 25 Mary the wife of Clopas

So James and Joseph are not brothers of Jesus

****************************************************

John 19: 26

Jesus entrusts his mother to John---why not a sibling???

Peace,

Fiosh

Matthew 12...

46 As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 47 Someone told Jesus,

[kittylover0991]

Catholics baptize babies thinking water can remove original sin.

They pray to Mary, Jesus mother because God is seen as an angry God and not approachable directly. She is now called a co-redeemer with Jesus. Praying to the dead.... forbidden by God. Praying to dead "saints" also forbidden by God. Only a certain class of people get to be "saints"

In communion the wine becomes the actual blood of Christ and the wafer, which is to be worshipped, turns into the body of Jesus. Any left-overs need to be buried like a body.

When one dies they go to purgatory... a holding place to work on their sin before heaven. Those alive can give a large sum to the church ... hundreds of dollars to say a "mass" a service, in their name, supposedly getting them out of this purgatory sooner. In other words... buying salvation.

Martin Luther came against this buying salvation by money and a degree from the pope or priest.

They have their own bible and their doctrines come out of extra-biblical writings not true.

When one sins, they confess to the priest, pastor, and then they say "hail mary's" or "our father" the Lord's prayer a certain amount of times and that forgives them.

The pope is christ on earth... infallable and yes, they do change their doctrines as time evolves and the popes want to change it, but it is slow enough that most people don't realize what is going on.

The killed real christians throughout time. They tried to kill Martin Luther, but he kept running and hiding.

The inquisition was killing real christians who disagreed with them.

They still think you and I are heretics. Only the catholic church, to them, is saved. You have to be a member of their denomination to be saved.

It is a religion of works.

The mass, the service, is focused around the euchrist, the Lord's supper, but has nothing to do with what Jesus instituted. It is re-sacrificing Jesus every time. That is why on their crosses, Jesus is a dead Christ.

They worship Mary. Not merely "honor" her... worship her.

They pray the rosary... meaningless repetition going to Mary first with prayers.

They do not believe in being born again.

They refuse birth control so that their families will be larger and eventually take over more and more of the world. They want to rule.

It IS NOT Christian. They are a large prosperous cult.

Mr. Jacobson, you are about 90% WRONG. Who taught you these things? Do you want to learn the facts, or just spew your calumnies? I would spend the time to refute each of your gross errors of fact here, but if your hatred is so so deep-seated as it seems to be no amount of truth could touch it, for when people hate like that, they cherish and nurture this hatred in their very soul and being.

I hope you find deliverance from this................

Thank you Leonard, and Thank you Mr Jacobson.

This is actually the very reason I started this thread (not to mention I didn't know about the "Ask a Catholic" thread), becauase Mr Jacobson, what you said, are the exact things that I have been told and things that I have learned.. the things about the dead bodies I learned from my pastor (he had been teaching a class on Catholicism but I was in my own sunday school class), but I learned the thing about praying to saints from my english teacher last year who is very much into the Catholic church, I learned about the indulgences and paying your way out of purgatory from AP European History last year (teacher was also very much into the Catholic Church)... the Hail Mary's from a TV program of a bunch of nuns saying the Hail Mary's for way over an hour... And then about "the Church (either Catholic or RCC I don't really know) being a cult and a social heirchy from a girl that used to be Catholic and used to go to a Catholic private school where they DID teach bible. Of course the rest is here-say... I"ve also learned about it being the actual blood and body from my pastor who has done extremely large amonts of study on the Catholic church...

I don't want to start an argument (althogh it seems that I have), but these are things that seem to be greatly known about these Catholic churches, whether they are true or not.. and sadly enough, a lot of it has caused great problems in history like the indulgences (Martin Luther), the Inquisition because it was deeemed heresy (heresy being if it does'nt agree with "what I say") ...

Again, thank you for pointing me to the thread in Apologetics!

Crystal

[Guest man]

Again, thank you for pointing me to the thread in Apologetics!

Crystal

That is a good thread.

Pay attention to the questions and the answers given.

Don't take anyone's word on what is being said....see what the bible has to say about these things. You might even want to do an internet search on some of the topics mentioned. I think you'll be amazed at what you find.

[Fiosh]

There are definately similarities in the liturgy of the Catholic Church and Episcopal Church that I attend but one thing I can't get over- Catholics believe that Mary remained a virgin but this view is not biblical (the bible doesn't say) - does this view come from an Augustinian view of sexuality? It just seems to make sex something that is bad - Is this why priests and nuns are not allowed to marry?

Peace be with you

The Catholic Church teaches that sex is a beautiful expression of love between a husband and wife---not something "bad".

The perpetual virginity of Mary is based in Scripture.

For example:

Luke 2: 41-51 at age 12, evidently Jesus is the only son of Mary

Mark 6:3 Jesus is called the son of Mary; not a son of Mary

*****************************************************

Mt 27: 56 Mary the mother of James and Joseph

is also

John 19: 25 Mary the wife of Clopas

So James and Joseph are not brothers of Jesus

****************************************************

John 19: 26

Jesus entrusts his mother to John---why not a sibling???

Peace,

Fiosh

Matthew 12...

46 As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 47 Someone told Jesus,

[Fiosh]

For example:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Baptism is not for infants, but for the believer. Infants do not believe, but are considered "under the blood" and they have a home in heaven with Jesus.

Where is that in the Bible????

[Fiosh]

And then there's that part about having to buy notes (indulgences?) from priests that would sort of free people from purgatory or whever else they might be, but it's pretty well known anyway and a lot of priests before Luther posted the 95 theses (sp?) had begun to abuse even that abusive system. Witnessing one of those priests selling those notes is supposedly one serious event that really upset him and motivated him to do what he did. I don't mean to attack the Church but like has already been mentioned, there are a lot of tenets to it that people don't agree with, like doing good works as a necessary part of salvation.

You are absolutely right, heartofstone, many leaders in the Church were guilty of horrendous abuses. Luther had good reason to fight for reform. The Church freely admits those grievous errors and repents of them. Selling indulgences has no place in the RCC today.

As for good works being one aspect of our salvation I would ask you to consider Matthew 25...

31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I think Jesus is serious.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Smalcald]

Certainly I do disagree with some Catholic Doctrine, but no more than I disagree with some Baptist Doctrine. However neither is heretical. I think we should discuss when a Christian group in essence totally leaves the faith, when would that happen? Before calling a group a cult or not saved or not Christian we should have a basis for that claim.

If we tried I think most of us here could excommunicate everyone else here, as few of us agree with ALL of what everyone else holds for doctrine, yet deep down we know that these things are not what ejects someone from the faith of Christ.

The good thing is we still have the Christian Creeds and for me they are an excellent starting point.

[Fiosh]

Certainly I do disagree with some Catholic Doctrine, but no more than I disagree with some Baptist Doctrine. However neither is heretical. I think we should discuss when a Christian group in essence totally leaves the faith, when would that happen? Before calling a group a cult or not saved or not Christian we should have a basis for that claim.

If we tried I think most of us here could excommunicate everyone else here, as few of us agree with ALL of what everyone else holds for doctrine, yet deep down we know that these things are not what ejects someone from the faith of Christ.

The good thing is we still have the Christian Creeds and for me they are an excellent starting point.

Great point, smalcald.

In my Catholic Church we recite the Nicene Creed at almost every Mass to re-affirm our beliefs.

+Nicene Creed+

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.