Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[Sherman]

Hey Matthew,

Thanks for the reply. Man you must really be hung up on Benny Hinns . I wish I could help you with that but I don't follow his ministry closely. I don't think I've ever read one of his books. I did attend his church serveral times back many years ago before he became so well known. I don't consider him a prophet, but I do believe he operates in the gift of healing. Many people have seen wonderful miracles through his ministry.

Concerning other prophecies, the January before 9/11, Pat Robertson said that he believed the Lord was showing him that this year would see a terrible attack by radical muslims against America. And as you know, it happened. On another note, months before Katrina hit New Orleans, Cindy Jacobs and others that I can't recall off hand prophesied some terrible things coming against New Orleans because it was a gateway city into America for vodoo and other witchcraft type spirits. They said they saw a flood bringing cleansing and restoration. Bill Hammond has prophesied radical changes in government in other countries. He's really amazing. I could go on and on but I wont, why?

People often say, "Seeing is believing." However the truth is "Believing is seeing." If a person doesn't believe something, he will refuse to believe it no matter how much evidence one piles on. He will discount it of find a way to discredit it in his own mind in some way because Believing is Seeing. For example, I can go over 1 Cor. 13.8 all day and point out the end time futuristic wording of the context of that verse; I can explain that "tongues, prophecy, and knowledge" are representive of all the spiritual gifts and that Paul is writing a letter correcting problems in Corinth, not a theological treatise or systematic theology on any subject, and that we must understand the individual verses in light of the literary context. I could go on and on and on, laying out this information and my understanding of scripture; but it would do not good for those who have set their minds to believe that tongues are not for today.

I could tell you of prophetic words the Lord has given me, but you would have to take my word and/or the word of people who know me and heard what I spoke. I could share of prophetic words the Lord has spoken into my life through others, but they could be dismissed as irrelevant and not a real prophecy. Believing is Seeing. Not believing is Not seeing.

But then again, I'm not perfect and I don't know anyone who is perfect. Even prophecy is in part. Even prophets only are shown a small part of the picture. You know, if one looks at the prophets of the Bible, much of what they prophesied could most certainly have been discredited in the short term, and some of the things they prophecied have still not come to pass. And not one of them was perfect in everything they said and did. Even Isaiah, when He stood before the Lord, cried, "Woe is me; I'm a mess and everyone I know is a mess." (my paraphrase).

How does one receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit? By faith, just like one receives salvation. How does one operate in the gifts of the Spirit, by faith. The righteous shall live by faith. And faith comes from hearing the word of God. Concerning the Apostles receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit when Christ breathed on them, actually, they didn't receive the BHS until the day of Pentecost. When Christ breathed on them, I don't know what happened to them except that if they weren't born of the Spirit before that, they certainly were then! Hallelujah!

When one examines the examples in Acts of the BHS subsequent the initial event in Acts 2, we find it happening in a variety of ways. The Samaritans received when John and Peter laid hands on them after they had been saved and baptized in water. Cornelius and his household were born again by faith and received the BHS as Peter preached to them before the were baptized in water or before Peter even realized they were saved, accepted by God. Paul received the BHS through the ministry of Annanias after being born again on the road to Damascus. Paul ministered the BHS to disciples in Ephesus by laying hands on them.

In all of these examples there is a common thread, people received the BHS in the presence of others who had received the BHS and believed in the BHS. One could say this is normative to receiving the BHS, but one can not say that it's impossible to receive it otherwise. I have heard of people who recieved the BHS evidenced by speaking in tongues without anyone around, when they were in prayer or worship by themselves.

I do encourage you though, if you're serious about receiving the BHS, take a couple of months and attend a church that believes in and teaches about the BHS. If you're surrounded by those who do not believe that the BHS is for today, it's unlikely that you'll receive because it takes faith. And if you're in a community of people who don't believe, it's difficult to go against the flow of doubt and have faith. There are some good courses online concerning the BHS. On cbn.com you can check out the Living by the Book series. Jack Hayford's series on there is very good. Take some time and go through those courses, their actually very good. Prophecy is a real and important part of my life. I've also experienced tongues and interpretation of tongues in tongues.

Several years ago, I was in a service and the Pastor said that he believed that he was to give a message in tongues and he believed that someone in the congregation would be given the interpretation. Well he did, and I did. The essence of the message was a prayer for deliverance for our church from some very serious issue of sin. It was intence to say the least. Anyhow, within a week or two, it was revealed that the worship leader in our church was guilty of sexual abuse of another member in the church through using date rape type drugs. He was a snake in the grass and God inspired us to pray for the deliverance and then supplied that delieverance. But this to could be discounted by those who don't believe in tongues and interpretation, especially being they would have to take my word for it, though I have no reason to tell a lie that I can think of.

Well, I've got to go for now. Matthew, I do pray that you and all reading this post will be increasingly filled with the Spirit of the Living God, and that you will all pray in the spirit (tongues) and even more so that you'll prophecy.

Sincerely,

Sherman

Believing is Seeing!!!!

Edited March 4, 2007 by Sherman

[matthew4:4]

Hey Matthew,

Thanks for the reply. Man you must really be hung up on Benny Hinns . I wish I could help you with that but I don't follow his ministry closely. I don't think I've ever read one of his books. I did attend his church serveral times back many years ago before he became so well known. I don't consider him a prophet, but I do believe he operates in the gift of healing. Many people have seen wonderful miracles through his ministry.

Concerning other prophecies, the January before 9/11, Pat Robertson said that he believed the Lord was showing him that this year would see a terrible attack by radical muslims against America. And as you know, it happened. On another note, months before Katrina hit New Orleans, Cindy Jacobs and others that I can't recall off hand prophesied some terrible things coming against New Orleans because it was a gateway city into America for vodoo and other witchcraft type spirits. They said they saw a flood bringing cleansing and restoration. Bill Hammond has prophesied radical changes in government in other countries. He's really amazing. I could go on and on but I wont, why?

People often say, "Seeing is believing." However the truth is "Believing is seeing." If a person doesn't believe something, he will refuse to believe it no matter how much evidence one piles on. He will discount it of find a way to discredit it in his own mind in some way because Believing is Seeing. For example, I can go over 1 Cor. 13.8 all day and point out the end time futuristic wording of the context of that verse; I can explain that "tongues, prophecy, and knowledge" are representive of all the spiritual gifts and that Paul is writing a letter correcting problems in Corinth, not a theological treatise or systematic theology on any subject, and that we must understand the individual verses in light of the literary context. I could go on and on and on, laying out this information and my understanding of scripture; but it would do not good for those who have set their minds to believe that tongues are not for today.

I could tell you of prophetic words the Lord has given me, but you would have to take my word and/or the word of people who know me and heard what I spoke. I could share of prophetic words the Lord has spoken into my life through others, but they could be dismissed as irrelevant and not a real prophecy. Believing is Seeing. Not believing is Not seeing.

But then again, I'm not perfect and I don't know anyone who is perfect. Even prophecy is in part. Even prophets only are shown a small part of the picture. You know, if one looks at the prophets of the Bible, much of what they prophesied could most certainly have been discredited in the short term, and some of the things they prophecied have still not come to pass. And not one of them was perfect in everything they said and did. Even Isaiah, when He stood before the Lord, cried, "Woe is me; I'm a mess and everyone I know is a mess." (my paraphrase).

How does one receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit? By faith, just like one receives salvation. How does one operate in the gifts of the Spirit, by faith. The righteous shall live by faith. And faith comes from hearing the word of God. Concerning the Apostles receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit when Christ breathed on them, actually, they didn't receive the BHS until the day of Pentecost. When Christ breathed on them, I don't know what happened to them except that if they weren't born of the Spirit before that, they certainly were then! Hallelujah!

When one examines the examples in Acts of the BHS subsequent the initial event in Acts 2, we find it happening in a variety of ways. The Samaritans received when John and Peter laid hands on them after they had been saved and baptized in water. Cornelius and his household were born again by faith and received the BHS as Peter preached to them before the were baptized in water or before Peter even realized they were saved, accepted by God. Paul received the BHS through the ministry of Annanias after being born again on the road to Damascus. Paul ministered the BHS to disciples in Ephesus by laying hands on them.

In all of these examples there is a common thread, people received the BHS in the presence of others who had received the BHS and believed in the BHS. One could say this is normative to receiving the BHS, but one can not say that it's impossible to receive it otherwise. I have heard of people who recieved the BHS evidenced by speaking in tongues without anyone around, when they were in prayer or worship by themselves.

I do encourage you though, if you're serious about receiving the BHS, take a couple of months and attend a church that believes in and teaches about the BHS. If you're surrounded by those who do not believe that the BHS is for today, it's unlikely that you'll receive because it takes faith. And if you're in a community of people who don't believe, it's difficult to go against the flow of doubt and have faith. There are some good courses online concerning the BHS. On cbn.com you can check out the Living by the Book series. Jack Hayford's series on there is very good. Take some time and go through those courses, their actually very good. Prophecy is a real and important part of my life. I've also experienced tongues and interpretation of tongues in tongues.

Several years ago, I was in a service and the Pastor said that he believed that he was to give a message in tongues and he believed that someone in the congregation would be given the interpretation. Well he did, and I did. The essence of the message was a prayer for deliverance for our church from some very serious issue of sin. It was intence to say the least. Anyhow, within a week or two, it was revealed that the worship leader in our church was guilty of sexual abuse of another member in the church through using date rape type drugs. He was a snake in the grass and God inspired us to pray for the deliverance and then supplied that delieverance. But this to could be discounted by those who don't believe in tongues and interpretation, especially being they would have to take my word for it, though I have no reason to tell a lie that I can think of.

Well, I've got to go for now. Matthew, I do pray that you and all reading this post will be increasingly filled with the Spirit of the Living God, and that you will all pray in the spirit (tongues) and even more so that you'll prophecy.

Sincerely,

Sherman

Believing is Seeing!!!!

Hey Sherman, I dont have much time cause its sunday and we're about to go to church. By the way. What type of church do you attend? I attend a independent baptist church right here in the dominican republic. My pastor is even American. lol. Anyway, umm I did look up some stuff about Cindy Jacobs. And, I understand your believing is seeing thing. But, trust me, if you give me evidence I'll believe you. The thing is the bible says there will be many false prophets declaring false prophesies in his name. That means in the church or on the television. TBN is filled with people who come on teaching false doctrines. It seems that those who believes in gifts dont seem to see these false prophets because they dont want to prosecute anyone with the gift. We as christians need to take a close look at these people because God says that he who prophesies falsely in his name is not with God. Well, God is not with him. Be careful in whom you accept as a prophet.

Also, You said you have the gift of prophecy, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. In corinthians 12 it is very clear that one person will get one gift, another this one, another that one. So, maybe some people can get more than one, but it would only be like one or two. The thing I find funny is how so many people claim to have almost every gift imaginable. I have never met anyone who claimed to have just one gift. So, you say you have 3. How many does your pastor claim to have or some of the deacons? Anyway, I gotta go to church now but I got some more stuff to say when I get back. Always, your brother in christ, matthew

P.S. check out this site http://www.intotruth.org/prophets/no-profit.html just something to think about

[Eliyahuw]

Matthew: Some of your posts can be construed as kind of insulting. Your post #92 said this to Floatingaxe;

[matthew4:4]

Matthew: Some of your posts can be construed as kind of insulting. Your post #92 said this to Floatingaxe;

[Sherman]

Hey Sherman, I dont have much time cause its sunday and we're about to go to church. By the way. What type of church do you attend? I attend a independent baptist church right here in the dominican republic. My pastor is even American. lol. Anyway, umm I did look up some stuff about Cindy Jacobs. And, I understand your believing is seeing thing. But, trust me, if you give me evidence I'll believe you. The thing is the bible says there will be many false prophets declaring false prophesies in his name. That means in the church or on the television. TBN is filled with people who come on teaching false doctrines. It seems that those who believes in gifts dont seem to see these false prophets because they dont want to prosecute anyone with the gift. We as christians need to take a close look at these people because God says that he who prophesies falsely in his name is not with God. Well, God is not with him. Be careful in whom you accept as a prophet.

Also, You said you have the gift of prophecy, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. In corinthians 12 it is very clear that one person will get one gift, another this one, another that one. So, maybe some people can get more than one, but it would only be like one or two. The thing I find funny is how so many people claim to have almost every gift imaginable. I have never met anyone who claimed to have just one gift. So, you say you have 3. How many does your pastor claim to have or some of the deacons? Anyway, I gotta go to church now but I got some more stuff to say when I get back. Always, your brother in christ, matthew

P.S. check out this site http://www.intotruth.org/prophets/no-profit.html just something to think about

Good morning Matthew,

Dominican Republic, wow isn't the internet awesome. We can fellowship with brothers all over the world. I'm glad you're going to a good church, though if it's like many Baptist churches you'll have a pretty steady diet of misinformation concerning the BHS resulting in mistrust of others and a quickness to prejudge those in Charismatic/Pentecostal churches.

I attend New Life Christian Fellowship in Virginia Beach, VA. I would be there this morning but my son is not feeling well. NLCF is an interdenominational transethnic Charismatic church. One of our favorite saying is that we're Charismatics with a brain! lol. We value the gifts but we also believe that God gave us an intellect to use. God wants us to use both with all that is within us. Concerning those who "believe in the gifts not wanting to take a look at false prophets," believe me, there's plenty of criticicm and judgmentalism in every branch of the church. And there are plenty of divisions between denominations and even within denominations. There is plenty of heretical doctrine to go around. The ones who worry me are the ones who think they have a corner market on truth and they have been called to correct everyone else. They worry me because I was one of them and was raised in one of those churches. We weren't sure we were saved, but we were sure you weren't. lol

Several years after being filled with the Spirit, I was in class at an interdemonmination seminary; we were discussing the Eccumenical movement that was born out of the Charisamatic movement that was born out of the Pentecostal movement in the church. Anyhow, one of the students stood up and with angry passion said "I just want to know one thing; were does one draw the line doctrinally." He continued with venom in his voice, "Look at the Catholics; they pray to Mary; they worship idols; they baptize babies; they...they....they...!!!!" Well, the class went silent, no one spoke or answered his queston, not even the prof. During the silence, I heard the Lord say....., but I was too afraid to share it because it was very confrontational and I'm not or wasn't a real confrontational person. After a few minutes, discussion picked up but no one ever answered his question. When you're growing in the prophetic gift, one of the ways to discern if a word is from the Lord is that it stays with you over a period of time as you pray about it. In fact, it grows inside of you getting stronger and hotter until you just can't keep it inside of you.

Well, that's what happened with this word. In the next class, I stood and said, "Do you recall the question that came up in the last question about drawing a doctrinal line when it comes to recognizing someone as a brother in Christ though they are part of a different denomination; well, I believe the Lord said; "First of all, I look on the heart! And secondly, you ALL have idols in your life!!!" Then I sat down and class went on. I don't know if the others received that word, but it revolutionized me and my attitudes towards others. Frankly, I don't get hung up on others having doctrine that is significantly different than mine. I do my best to hear the persons heart, their passion and love for the Lord, and look beyond any differences we have. I also recognize that I have errant beliefs, I just don't know what they are. I have blind spots, but I cann't see where I'm blind. If I get a chance to share or discuss our differences in a respectful and beneficial way, then I take that chance; like we're doing. But I'm not going to waiste my time or theirs in bashing and disrespecting eachother -- that foolishness is just that, foolish.

Matthew, I understand you're concern and criticism of Charismatics, especially with a lot of the flakyness that's seen on TV these days. The question is, can one look beyond all the big showie funky hair-doos and flashy seemingly selfserving junk and hear their hearts, and even more so, hear that one nugget of truth that God has shown them, in the middle of all the other crap that they communicate. A spirit of self-righteous judgementalism will stir up the crap, and smear everyone with it. A spirit of humble discernment will sort through all the crap and find and highlight the one speck of gold-dust.

Concerning people having multiple spiritual gifts as opposed to one spiritual gift, I can understand how one would assume that we should each only have one because of Paul's wording in 1 Cor.12.7-11 that to one is given this gift and to another that gift; but if you read it in the greater context of chapters 12-14, we find that though you are gifted in certain areas we are encouraged to seek and grow in other gifts, especially in prophecy. What I've experienced is that we all are gifted with various gift mixes, but we can all minister all of the spiritual gifts at any given moment if we believe and are listening to the Lord. For example, we are all encouraged to prophecy, but some have the gift of prophecy, and out of that group a few arre called to be prophets. A natural example of this is baseball. We can all play baseball, but out of 100 of us maybe 5 or 10 will be gifted in base ball. And out of that 5-10, maybe 1 or 2 will also be gifted in leadership and can be a baseball coach.

I've also found that we grow and mature in our gifts just like we grow and mature in our Christian character. I also don't hold anyone to perfection in character, their spiritual gifts, or their doctrine, even those that I consider to be prophets. I will say that a mature prophet will be uncannily accurate in his prophetic words, even then though, he only sees part of the picture and only prophecies in part. I don't hold any person, Christian, or minister to a standard of perfection in any way. I have such grace on others because I've been shown so much grace. I realize everyone's a mess because I admit that I'm probably the biggest mess of all.

May the Lord bless you and all who read this post wonderfully, filling you all with the Spirit of Christ.

Blessings,

Sherman

P.S. Though I radically disagree with their doctrine on the BHS, I highly respect the Baptist denominations and tremendously value their contribution to the Body of Christ, especially their strength in helping people experience Jesus in being born of the Spirit!!! They are also tremendously powerful in their respect for and study of the Word. Furthermore the Baptist have provided some great ministers for the Body of Christ, some men and women that I appreciate and respect highly. Many in my family would not know the Lord if it wasn't for what God is doing and has done through the Baptist! PTL for the Baptist!!!!

[matthew4:4]

Hey Sherman, I dont have much time cause its sunday and we're about to go to church. By the way. What type of church do you attend? I attend a independent baptist church right here in the dominican republic. My pastor is even American. lol. Anyway, umm I did look up some stuff about Cindy Jacobs. And, I understand your believing is seeing thing. But, trust me, if you give me evidence I'll believe you. The thing is the bible says there will be many false prophets declaring false prophesies in his name. That means in the church or on the television. TBN is filled with people who come on teaching false doctrines. It seems that those who believes in gifts dont seem to see these false prophets because they dont want to prosecute anyone with the gift. We as christians need to take a close look at these people because God says that he who prophesies falsely in his name is not with God. Well, God is not with him. Be careful in whom you accept as a prophet.

Also, You said you have the gift of prophecy, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. In corinthians 12 it is very clear that one person will get one gift, another this one, another that one. So, maybe some people can get more than one, but it would only be like one or two. The thing I find funny is how so many people claim to have almost every gift imaginable. I have never met anyone who claimed to have just one gift. So, you say you have 3. How many does your pastor claim to have or some of the deacons? Anyway, I gotta go to church now but I got some more stuff to say when I get back. Always, your brother in christ, matthew

P.S. check out this site http://www.intotruth.org/prophets/no-profit.html just something to think about

Good morning Matthew,

Dominican Republic, wow isn't the internet awesome. We can fellowship with brothers all over the world. I'm glad you're going to a good church, though if it's like many Baptist churches you'll have a pretty steady diet of misinformation concerning the BHS resulting in mistrust of others and a quickness to prejudge those in Charismatic/Pentecostal churches.

I attend New Life Christian Fellowship in Virginia Beach, VA. I would be there this morning but my son is not feeling well. NLCF is an interdenominational transethnic Charismatic church. One of our favorite saying is that we're Charismatics with a brain! lol. We value the gifts but we also believe that God gave us an intellect to use. God wants us to use both with all that is within us. Concerning those who "believe in the gifts not wanting to take a look at false prophets," believe me, there's plenty of criticicm and judgmentalism in every branch of the church. And there are plenty of divisions between denominations and even within denominations. There is plenty of heretical doctrine to go around. The ones who worry me are the ones who think they have a corner market on truth and they have been called to correct everyone else. They worry me because I was one of them and was raised in one of those churches. We weren't sure we were saved, but we were sure you weren't. lol

Several years after being filled with the Spirit, I was in class at an interdemonmination seminary; we were discussing the Eccumenical movement that was born out of the Charisamatic movement that was born out of the Pentecostal movement in the church. Anyhow, one of the students stood up and with angry passion said "I just want to know one thing; were does one draw the line doctrinally." He continued with venom in his voice, "Look at the Catholics; they pray to Mary; they worship idols; they baptize babies; they...they....they...!!!!" Well, the class went silent, no one spoke or answered his queston, not even the prof. During the silence, I heard the Lord say....., but I was too afraid to share it because it was very confrontational and I'm not or wasn't a real confrontational person. After a few minutes, discussion picked up but no one ever answered his question. When you're growing in the prophetic gift, one of the ways to discern if a word is from the Lord is that it stays with you over a period of time as you pray about it. In fact, it grows inside of you getting stronger and hotter until you just can't keep it inside of you.

Well, that's what happened with this word. In the next class, I stood and said, "Do you recall the question that came up in the last question about drawing a doctrinal line when it comes to recognizing someone as a brother in Christ though they are part of a different denomination; well, I believe the Lord said; "First of all, I look on the heart! And secondly, you ALL have idols in your life!!!" Then I sat down and class went on. I don't know if the others received that word, but it revolutionized me and my attitudes towards others. Frankly, I don't get hung up on others having doctrine that is significantly different than mine. I do my best to hear the persons heart, their passion and love for the Lord, and look beyond any differences we have. I also recognize that I have errant beliefs, I just don't know what they are. I have blind spots, but I cann't see where I'm blind. If I get a chance to share or discuss our differences in a respectful and beneficial way, then I take that chance; like we're doing. But I'm not going to waiste my time or theirs in bashing and disrespecting eachother -- that foolishness is just that, foolish.

Matthew, I understand you're concern and criticism of Charismatics, especially with a lot of the flakyness that's seen on TV these days. The question is, can one look beyond all the big showie funky hair-doos and flashy seemingly selfserving junk and hear their hearts, and even more so, hear that one nugget of truth that God has shown them, in the middle of all the other crap that they communicate. A spirit of self-righteous judgementalism will stir up the crap, and smear everyone with it. A spirit of humble discernment will sort through all the crap and find and highlight the one speck of gold-dust.

Concerning people having multiple spiritual gifts as opposed to one spiritual gift, I can understand how one would assume that we should each only have one because of Paul's wording in 1 Cor.12.7-11 that to one is given this gift and to another that gift; but if you read it in the greater context of chapters 12-14, we find that though you are gifted in certain areas we are encouraged to seek and grow in other gifts, especially in prophecy. What I've experienced is that we all are gifted with various gift mixes, but we can all minister all of the spiritual gifts at any given moment if we believe and are listening to the Lord. For example, we are all encouraged to prophecy, but some have the gift of prophecy, and out of that group a few arre called to be prophets. A natural example of this is baseball. We can all play baseball, but out of 100 of us maybe 5 or 10 will be gifted in base ball. And out of that 5-10, maybe 1 or 2 will also be gifted in leadership and can be a baseball coach.

I've also found that we grow and mature in our gifts just like we grow and mature in our Christian character. I also don't hold anyone to perfection in character, their spiritual gifts, or their doctrine, even those that I consider to be prophets. I will say that a mature prophet will be uncannily accurate in his prophetic words, even then though, he only sees part of the picture and only prophecies in part. I don't hold any person, Christian, or minister to a standard of perfection in any way. I have such grace on others because I've been shown so much grace. I realize everyone's a mess because I admit that I'm probably the biggest mess of all.

May the Lord bless you and all who read this post wonderfully, filling you all with the Spirit of Christ.

Blessings,

Sherman

P.S. Though I radically disagree with their doctrine on the BHS, I highly respect the Baptist denominations and tremendously value their contribution to the Body of Christ, especially their strength in helping people experience Jesus in being born of the Spirit!!! They are also tremendously powerful in their respect for and study of the Word. Furthermore the Baptist have provided some great ministers for the Body of Christ, some men and women that I appreciate and respect highly. Many in my family would not know the Lord if it wasn't for what God is doing and has done through the Baptist! PTL for the Baptist!!!!

Hey sherman,

I agree with you on a few things there but when you said that you prophesied to that group telling them what God told you to say. I dont see that as prophecy or even a gift. I ask God to tell me what to say all the time when I'm witnessing or talking to different denominations like this. And God puts the words in my heart but its through the means of science. He tells us through our brains. Its not like some supernatural gift. God created science. Its his webwork so he uses it withought having to break any of his own laws. Hes just intervening. So, I believe that God told you what to say but I dont believe that is a gift. I think everyone has that through a relationship with God.

I dont agree with you on everyone being able to prophecy. It wasnt like that in biblical times so why would it change. But if your defintion of prophecy is like that story you told then I guess it exists today but thats not prophecy. Thats just God's wisdom.

And, I understand the way my church is but thats what I wanted. I asked around for a baptist church because obviously I dont want to be going to a catholic church. And, the reason that I dont go to charasmatic/pentecostal churches is not only because I dont believe in those three gifts but also because it scares the crap out of me. lol. Whenever I see those pastors start to speak like they do while the rest of the church is speaking in tongues and yelling at the tops of their lungs, I freak out. It gives me a bad feeling inside. Being a christian, shouldnt I feel uplifted by this instead? Then towards the end of their service thingy they do the supposed "falling in the spirit" which is found no where biblically and just creeps me out. Ive never done it and never plan to! Even if I believed it I just get a bad feeling. Please let me know what you think sherman. And I would really like to speak to you on msn or yahoo. You know? It would be nice to have a more live conversation about this stuff. Plus, it would be cool to get to know you a little better. Anyway take care. Your brother in Christ, matthew

[Floatingaxe]

And, the reason that I dont go to charasmatic/pentecostal churches is not only because I dont believe in those three gifts but also because it scares the crap out of me.

Everything that Sherman told you is absolutely right on, especially about the prophetic.

You need not fear anything that is of God. It can be your fear that will prevent you from experiencing all that god wants to give you. Fear is not of God. Fear is the opposite of faith. Ask God for a faith that He can deliver to you all the wondrous power of the Holy Spirit in your life that He wants to give you.

[Sherman]

Hey sherman,

I agree with you on a few things there but when you said that you prophesied to that group telling them what God told you to say. I dont see that as prophecy or even a gift. I ask God to tell me what to say all the time when I'm witnessing or talking to different denominations like this. And God puts the words in my heart but its through the means of science. He tells us through our brains. Its not like some supernatural gift. God created science. Its his webwork so he uses it withought having to break any of his own laws. Hes just intervening. So, I believe that God told you what to say but I dont believe that is a gift. I think everyone has that through a relationship with God.

I dont agree with you on everyone being able to prophecy. It wasnt like that in biblical times so why would it change. But if your defintion of prophecy is like that story you told then I guess it exists today but thats not prophecy. Thats just God's wisdom.

And, I understand the way my church is but thats what I wanted. I asked around for a baptist church because obviously I dont want to be going to a catholic church. And, the reason that I dont go to charasmatic/pentecostal churches is not only because I dont believe in those three gifts but also because it scares the crap out of me. lol. Whenever I see those pastors start to speak like they do while the rest of the church is speaking in tongues and yelling at the tops of their lungs, I freak out. It gives me a bad feeling inside. Being a christian, shouldnt I feel uplifted by this instead? Then towards the end of their service thingy they do the supposed "falling in the spirit" which is found no where biblically and just creeps me out. Ive never done it and never plan to! Even if I believed it I just get a bad feeling. Please let me know what you think sherman. And I would really like to speak to you on msn or yahoo. You know? It would be nice to have a more live conversation about this stuff. Plus, it would be cool to get to know you a little better. Anyway take care. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Good morning Matthew,

You're more than welcome to contact me at sherman_nobles@yahoo.com. I'd be thankful to get to know you better too. And I understand your fears concerning many Pentecostal churches; it could be very much like going back to the church at Corinth. Some churches and some people do get so caught up in the gifts that they forget the purpose of the gifts is to express the love of God. And like the Corinthians who were learning to operate in the gifts, churches today are still learning. It's like riding a bike, I know how to ride a bike, but I still have to teach my children. And if I don't teach them, they might learn it for themselves if they are brave and have a real desire to do so. That's the way it is in many churches today, they are learning to ride the bike of spiritual gifts, without having their fathers to teach them how to do it because they never learned.

Sadly, satan brought much division in the early church especially between Jew and Gentile resulting in many heretical doctrines, doctrines of demons, bringing much of the church into terrible bondage, especially the Gentile branch of the church throughout the dark ages. The Jewish branch almost died out. Anyhow, one such demonic doctrine was cessasionist theology, the belief that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the manifestations of the Spirit all passed away with the Apostles and with the coming of the written NT. And though there were individuals and isolated movements throughout Church history that experienced the BHS and spiritual gifts, the cessasionist doctrine influenced most of the Church for 1800 years, until God broke through in the early 1900's with a tremendous outpouring of the Spirit.

As usuall, this happened primarily among the poor and uneducated, those who were open to God doing something because they hadn't been taught against it all of their lives by science or the errant theology of the mainline churches. They were like children learning how to ride a bike. It gave rise to many strange and weird practices like those experienced by the church at Corinth, but it also was a rebirth in the Church of the BHS and people actually learning to operate in the Spiritual Gifts. Anyhow, thankfully there are many ministers and churches that live in the fire of the Holy Spirit without letting wild-fire run crazy in their services. It's really challenging to operate in the Spiritual Gifts because like anything else, we grow in it by reason of use, but people often hold eachother to an unrealistic standard of perfection. So most people are too afraid to even get on the bike and ride because they might fall.

Concerning the definition of prophecy, it is simply hearing the voice of God and proclaiming what God tells you. Most of the time I preface it by saying something like, "I believe the Lord is saying....." These "words" can relate to past, present, or future. Most of the time however they relate to the present, something a person is facing or going through right now and are meant to encourage, correct, or strengthen them. The Lord has used me to "predict" events in individual lives and concerning much bigger things. For example, 10 or 12 years ago the Lord told me that the "Bamboo Curtain" was coming down, but that it wasn't going to be like the destruction of the Berlin Wall that came down quickly; it was going to come down gradually. The Lord also told me that the wealth of the world was going to Asia.

Please remember, I'm not claiming to be a prophet, nor do I claim to have the gift of prophecy, but I do occasionally prophecy. A more personal example, back in undergrad some 20 years ago, I was having breakfast with my roommate's friend how had come into town the night before. I fixed him pancakes. As we bowed to pray the Lord gave me a vision of this young man surrounded by little brown skinned children. I told him the vision and then I prayed for the interpretation. I then told him that I believed the Lord was saying that he was called to be an Apostolic orphanage planter in South America. The young man broke down in tears, asking how in the world I knew what his heart's desire was; he had never shared that with anyone. Long story short, it greatly encouraged him.

More recently, one day at work I felt impressed to write a prophetic word concerning healing and then walk through the office to give it to someone. I wrote it down and began walking past the cubies in another room from mine. I felt impressed to give the note to a lady that I didn't even know. I gave it to her and she later came with tears in her eyes. She had been diagnosed with a serious problem but was going back for more tests. The Lord had been speaking to her that He was healing her, and then my note came saying the same thing. Well, she went and had the tests and the problem had dissapeared. PTL!

I have to go for now, but will write more later. Let me though assure you that there are many and an increasing number of churches that are much more mature in their expression of the gifts of the Spirit and not given over to much weirdness. These churches, the greatest thing that you will sence and see is a tremendous passion for the Lord in worship and a great love for one another, having much grace on eachother. If you want to experience the BHS, I encourage you to visit a church like that for a few months.

Blessings,

Sherman

[matthew4:4]

Hey sherman,

I agree with you on a few things there but when you said that you prophesied to that group telling them what God told you to say. I dont see that as prophecy or even a gift. I ask God to tell me what to say all the time when I'm witnessing or talking to different denominations like this. And God puts the words in my heart but its through the means of science. He tells us through our brains. Its not like some supernatural gift. God created science. Its his webwork so he uses it withought having to break any of his own laws. Hes just intervening. So, I believe that God told you what to say but I dont believe that is a gift. I think everyone has that through a relationship with God.

I dont agree with you on everyone being able to prophecy. It wasnt like that in biblical times so why would it change. But if your defintion of prophecy is like that story you told then I guess it exists today but thats not prophecy. Thats just God's wisdom.

And, I understand the way my church is but thats what I wanted. I asked around for a baptist church because obviously I dont want to be going to a catholic church. And, the reason that I dont go to charasmatic/pentecostal churches is not only because I dont believe in those three gifts but also because it scares the crap out of me. lol. Whenever I see those pastors start to speak like they do while the rest of the church is speaking in tongues and yelling at the tops of their lungs, I freak out. It gives me a bad feeling inside. Being a christian, shouldnt I feel uplifted by this instead? Then towards the end of their service thingy they do the supposed "falling in the spirit" which is found no where biblically and just creeps me out. Ive never done it and never plan to! Even if I believed it I just get a bad feeling. Please let me know what you think sherman. And I would really like to speak to you on msn or yahoo. You know? It would be nice to have a more live conversation about this stuff. Plus, it would be cool to get to know you a little better. Anyway take care. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Good morning Matthew,

You're more than welcome to contact me at sherman_nobles@yahoo.com. I'd be thankful to get to know you better too. And I understand your fears concerning many Pentecostal churches; it could be very much like going back to the church at Corinth. Some churches and some people do get so caught up in the gifts that they forget the purpose of the gifts is to express the love of God. And like the Corinthians who were learning to operate in the gifts, churches today are still learning. It's like riding a bike, I know how to ride a bike, but I still have to teach my children. And if I don't teach them, they might learn it for themselves if they are brave and have a real desire to do so. That's the way it is in many churches today, they are learning to ride the bike of spiritual gifts, without having their fathers to teach them how to do it because they never learned.

Sadly, satan brought much division in the early church especially between Jew and Gentile resulting in many heretical doctrines, doctrines of demons, bringing much of the church into terrible bondage, especially the Gentile branch of the church throughout the dark ages. The Jewish branch almost died out. Anyhow, one such demonic doctrine was cessasionist theology, the belief that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the manifestations of the Spirit all passed away with the Apostles and with the coming of the written NT. And though there were individuals and isolated movements throughout Church history that experienced the BHS and spiritual gifts, the cessasionist doctrine influenced most of the Church for 1800 years, until God broke through in the early 1900's with a tremendous outpouring of the Spirit.

As usuall, this happened primarily among the poor and uneducated, those who were open to God doing something because they hadn't been taught against it all of their lives by science or the errant theology of the mainline churches. They were like children learning how to ride a bike. It gave rise to many strange and weird practices like those experienced by the church at Corinth, but it also was a rebirth in the Church of the BHS and people actually learning to operate in the Spiritual Gifts. Anyhow, thankfully there are many ministers and churches that live in the fire of the Holy Spirit without letting wild-fire run crazy in their services. It's really challenging to operate in the Spiritual Gifts because like anything else, we grow in it by reason of use, but people often hold eachother to an unrealistic standard of perfection. So most people are too afraid to even get on the bike and ride because they might fall.

Concerning the definition of prophecy, it is simply hearing the voice of God and proclaiming what God tells you. Most of the time I preface it by saying something like, "I believe the Lord is saying....." These "words" can relate to past, present, or future. Most of the time however they relate to the present, something a person is facing or going through right now and are meant to encourage, correct, or strengthen them. The Lord has used me to "predict" events in individual lives and concerning much bigger things. For example, 10 or 12 years ago the Lord told me that the "Bamboo Curtain" was coming down, but that it wasn't going to be like the destruction of the Berlin Wall that came down quickly; it was going to come down gradually. The Lord also told me that the wealth of the world was going to Asia.

Please remember, I'm not claiming to be a prophet, nor do I claim to have the gift of prophecy, but I do occasionally prophecy. A more personal example, back in undergrad some 20 years ago, I was having breakfast with my roommate's friend how had come into town the night before. I fixed him pancakes. As we bowed to pray the Lord gave me a vision of this young man surrounded by little brown skinned children. I told him the vision and then I prayed for the interpretation. I then told him that I believed the Lord was saying that he was called to be an Apostolic orphanage planter in South America. The young man broke down in tears, asking how in the world I knew what his heart's desire was; he had never shared that with anyone. Long story short, it greatly encouraged him.

More recently, one day at work I felt impressed to write a prophetic word concerning healing and then walk through the office to give it to someone. I wrote it down and began walking past the cubies in another room from mine. I felt impressed to give the note to a lady that I didn't even know. I gave it to her and she later came with tears in her eyes. She had been diagnosed with a serious problem but was going back for more tests. The Lord had been speaking to her that He was healing her, and then my note came saying the same thing. Well, she went and had the tests and the problem had dissapeared. PTL!

I have to go for now, but will write more later. Let me though assure you that there are many and an increasing number of churches that are much more mature in their expression of the gifts of the Spirit and not given over to much weirdness. These churches, the greatest thing that you will sence and see is a tremendous passion for the Lord in worship and a great love for one another, having much grace on eachother. If you want to experience the BHS, I encourage you to visit a church like that for a few months.

Blessings,

Sherman

Sherman,

My heart is truly yearning right now. Im asking God to show me wether something is right. Im very confused. Let me tell you what happened just an hour ago. I went to one of these charasmatic type bible studies with my girlfriend. And the message was about couples and it became very dramatic. A young women was telling a testimony about how God had told her who she was to marry and I have no problem with that. I know God speaks to us through different means. So, anyway I noticed that my girlfriend was particularly touched by her story. After her story was over they began a prayer with random speaking of tongues which you know I have an issue with but anyway my girlfriend started balling. As I was standing there watching all this comotion I was speechless and fear seized me. My heart was pounding and I just wanted to run out the door. Sherman, just recalling this brings back that fear in my stomach. It doesnt feel right but Im not quite sure what to believe. Anyway, they started going around praying for people and then I freaked out and left the room. I went outside because I just couldnt take it. I asked God to bring me peace so that my heart would stop pounding, which he did. I sat there for awhile until a man named Julian came out who was usually giving the bible study. He saw me leave and knew something was wrong and so he began asking me why I didnt believing in the gifts and so on. We didnt get into it too much but I am going to speak with him sometime this week. See, I came to my faith through evidence and fact. I need to study and compare things against God's word. So now I feel exhausted. Please pray for me because I desire the truth. No. I need the truth. But Sherman, even if I do ended believing in the gifts I dont know how to deal with that situation. I dont want to be in that situation. My girlfriend crying like that real scared me. I dont want to cry like that in front of people. I had once cried alone to Jesus when I was watching a reenactement of the crucifixion. But, tonight I did realize that I know very little and have a long way to go. Sherman, if you have any more stories to share please do. Your brother in christ, matthew

P.S- I'll talk to you on yahoo soon

[matthew4:4]

I've noticed that some denominations believe in spiritual gifts, some don't. I personally believe in spiritual gifts because the Lord blessed me with some, My purpose for starting this is I'm interested to see others views concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Lets look at the scriptures on spiritual gifts.

1 corinthians 12:4-11

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Now, the next core part I've noticed is how these work, and how the Holy Spirit works in our lives, we are the body of Christ, so each gift is to the development of another, Edifing one another, As the body has different parts, so we are given a range of gifts, and callings.

1st corinthians 12:27-31

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way

Now it is believed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no more, based off of what I feel is a wrong interpritation of chap 13, also refered to as the love chapter.

1st corinthians 13:8-9

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Notice it says when that which is perfect has come, I believe that that is refering to Jesus Christ, his second comming. All spiritual gifts are used to edify, Now when we are made perfect in the Glory of Christ, in the end, what reason would we need to be edified? when we are made perfect. If you go back and read the whole chapter, the theme, is love, it's saying that even in heaven there is love, though everything on this earth will pass away, and out of everything love is the most important. One other thing, is that many claim that there is no devotional toungues, well what about this verse?

1st corinthians 14

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding.

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Now I'm set out to find further understanding, what is your opinion on this?

My question is what is your point of view.

All the gifts are still alive and in action. Its the differnts denominations that adds or takes the gift away. The seminary in Dallas sponsored by the Southern Baptist Assocation decalred that the speaking in tounge is no longer a gift but can't back it by the Bible. A AOG church in my town says if you have accepted Jesus and a baptised you should be able to speak and pray in tounge though the scriptures says some will have this gift others that gift but no where does it say you must have this gift to prove you are born again.

IHMS Dennis

You can back it by the bible though. Thats the problem. Thats what makes this issue very sensitive. I now think last night that my fear was God telling me to stay away from that type of service. I dont want to base everything on feelings though. Thats usually what a lot of charasmatics teach. To use your feelings in order to tell you what to do. The fact is we needed to scrutinize this issue tremendously because we know that if someone is declaring prophesies in the Lord's name and they are not true then that person is a false prophet and is being used by the devil. This is supported by scripture. So, those you trust in this man's ability to prophecy are trusting in the devil as well. I dont want to come in here saying the gifts are not for today but that we need to be very careful what we choose to accept. The most important thing is accepting Jesus so we shouldnt worry too much about having these gifts or not. God will do many things through you withought any gifts. I personally believe they were needed in order to write the bible and to edify the church that did not have a perfect bible yet because it was incomplete at that time. The church was maturing at that time. We no longer need people to edify the church because we have God's finished word. So to say that prophecy and tongues are still needed would be to say that the Bible is not perfect or complete. Your brother in Christ, matthew