Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[Sherman]

Eddie (Cobalt1959),

Awesome post. Very well stated with much grace and solid exegesis!

I agree with you that tongues is not the only benchmark for receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. One could say based on the examples in Acts that tongues "usually" accompanies the BHS, but one can not say that if someone doesn't speak in tongues they have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. What one can say is that there is some form of supernatural manefestation of God in and through the person who is baptized in the Holy Spirit. Something happens to them, a supernatural event takes place -- usually this is tongues and/or prophecy.

You're probably aware of this, but for the benefit of others not familiar with or experiencing the BHS like Matthew who has expressed interest and openness, I would like to draw a distinction between between the personal expression of tongues in prayer and worship meant for personal edification (praying in the Spirit), and the "gift of tongues" used in the context of gatherings of the church for edification of the body. This gift of tongues should always be tied with the interpretation of tongues, otherwise it is of no benefit to the body. When one is reading 1 Cor. 12-14 it's important to discern which tongues, personal or corporate, Paul is addressing.

Well, I have to go for now. I pray that everyone reading this post will be increasingly filled with the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely,

Sherman

"I wish you all spoke in tongues, and even more so that you prophecied!"

[Floatingaxe]

Excellent posts, Eddie and Sherman!

[Arthur Durnan]

The real outstanding problem with emphasizing the speaking in "heavenly mumbo-jumbo" is that NOWHERE does Holy Scripture promote such! Never once. ALL biblical languages are KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD, EARTHLY languages known to humankind. Again, even angels, when they spoke in Holy Writ, always spoke in languages KNOWN to the listeners. Always in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. Never once in a "divine gibberish" in talking with men or in praise to the Sovereign Lord of Glory. One more time then: the classic Acts Two passage re "speaking in languages" (Acts 2:8-11) at the introduction of the Blessed Holy Spirit at the time of Pentecost, underscores the fact that the "tongues" spoken in this initial instance were KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD & EARTHLY languages of man, and never "ladia, sphona, te te terra, ada aba terum, keri kera enphona, oda odet cumma se se" as emphasized in modern charismatic circles. And, to boot, "tongues" did indeed "cease of themselves" as a phenomenon over long centuries of time until an A.D. 1901 re-commencement of "heavenly gibberish" ala Azusa Pentecostal assembly! Incredulous indeed! And quite significant as well. One never ceases to be amazed at the ability of some kind folk to read into settled Holy Scripture a "divine mumbo-jumbo" which is nowhere found there. The Bible is quite clear. It remains quite difficult, does it not, to unring a biblical bell? Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Floatingaxe]

The real outstanding problem with emphasizing the speaking in "heavenly mumbo-jumbo" is that NOWHERE does Holy Scripture promote such! Never once. ALL biblical languages are KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD, EARTHLY languages known to humankind. Again, even angels, when they spoke in Holy Writ, always spoke in languages KNOWN to the listeners. Always in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. Never once in a "divine gibberish" in talking with men or in praise to the Sovereign Lord of Glory. One more time then: the classic Acts Two passage re "speaking in languages" (Acts 2:8-11) at the introduction of the Blessed Holy Spirit at the time of Pentecost, underscores the fact that the "tongues" spoken in this initial instance were KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD & EARTHLY languages of man, and never "ladia, sphona, te te terra, ada aba terum, keri kera enphona, oda odet cumma se se" as emphasized in modern charismatic circles. And, to boot, "tongues" did indeed "cease of themselves" as a phenomenon over long centuries of time until an A.D. 1901 re-commencement of "heavenly gibberish" ala Azusa Pentecostal assembly! Incredulous indeed! And quite significant as well. One never ceases to be amazed at the ability of some kind folk to read into settled Holy Scripture a "divine mumbo-jumbo" which is nowhere found there. The Bible is quite clear. It remains quite difficult, does it not, to unring a biblical bell? Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

Lies, Arthur.

[abbershay]

The real outstanding problem with emphasizing the speaking in "heavenly mumbo-jumbo" is that NOWHERE does Holy Scripture promote such! Never once. ALL biblical languages are KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD, EARTHLY languages known to humankind. Again, even angels, when they spoke in Holy Writ, always spoke in languages KNOWN to the listeners. Always in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. Never once in a "divine gibberish" in talking with men or in praise to the Sovereign Lord of Glory. One more time then: the classic Acts Two passage re "speaking in languages" (Acts 2:8-11) at the introduction of the Blessed Holy Spirit at the time of Pentecost, underscores the fact that the "tongues" spoken in this initial instance were KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD & EARTHLY languages of man, and never "ladia, sphona, te te terra, ada aba terum, keri kera enphona, oda odet cumma se se" as emphasized in modern charismatic circles. And, to boot, "tongues" did indeed "cease of themselves" as a phenomenon over long centuries of time until an A.D. 1901 re-commencement of "heavenly gibberish" ala Azusa Pentecostal assembly! Incredulous indeed! And quite significant as well. One never ceases to be amazed at the ability of some kind folk to read into settled Holy Scripture a "divine mumbo-jumbo" which is nowhere found there. The Bible is quite clear. It remains quite difficult, does it not, to unring a biblical bell? Amen!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

All languages are not known , there have been services that people have spoken in tongues . It just happened that there was an expert in the cowd who studied dead lanuages . This person heard what was being said and knew right away that this was God.

Another case a pastor missionary friend was in the field and spoke out a word in tongues , waiting for the interpretaion , they finally asked why didnt anyone give a interpretation? they said it was because it was in cree ..... this was a cree crowd and everyone knew the language eccept the one speaking it.

[Floatingaxe]

I know the story of a man who wanted the gift of tongues and asked and asked but it wouldn't come. He gave up trying one day, and just decided that he would simply speak anything, in a service where he was doing this publically. He decided to make it up.

Well, afterward, he went to the microphone and repented for it, but a woman jumped up and proclaimed that her friend knew exactly what he was saying, as he was speaking in her own tongue!

He was flabbergasted!

[Yahsway]

I would like to share a personal testimony.

I was raised in a Baptist church. Accepted Jesus at 15 years of age. Lived for Him several years. Backslid for many years. Married a Jewish man. Witnessed his salvation 4 years after marriage in a Pentecostal church. Re-dedicated my life. Then we moved to another town. Attended a Baptist church. Both of us got real involved. Became very good friends with the pastor and his wife.

Then all hell broke loose. Not to go into too much detail only to say the pastor was homosexual and after my husband. Disappointed and heartbroken, angry and just plain sick over the situation, we left going to Church period. Never again we both said we would ever step foot in another assembly. If you cant trust the pastor who can you trust?

For 11 years we worshiped and had bible study at home. We loved messianic music, Israel's Hope, Paul ilbur and many others. Family and friends thought we were nuts because we live in a small southern rural town and if its not "southern gospel" then your a cult.Ha.

One Sunday I got ready to go to work. My husband said that he was going to the church just a block from our house. I was very angry with him. This church had recently put out an Israeli flag next to the American flag outside its doors and of course this made my husband very curious. So off to work I go, off to the church he went.

When I returned home that afternoon, I found him excited and I saw a light in his eyes I had not seen in some time. He went on to tell me that when he enteed the building, the congregation was singing in Hebrew. Some of the songs were both in english and in hebrew and all of the songs he knew for they were the same as we listened to at home.

We would later find out that the music minister (the pastors wife) had a whole song service prepared that morning and changed it at the last moment due to the Holy Spirit speaking to her. She later told us that she was prompted to do the song service in an Israeli flair. I am forever grateful for her listening and obeying God.

Now, this church is an Assembly of God Church. I had always said that I would never become a "Holy Roller" (this is what I called them) and that I did not believe in the "tongue jibberish" and that God would have to show mw that it was real.

After attending for a little less than a year, and praying earnestly for this gift, I was awaiting a surgery and went up for prayer that everything would go well. The pastor prayed for me and while he was praying I heard a wind so loud that the pastors voice was faintly heard. I remember my tongue started to roll in my mouth and it scared me so bad that I put my hand over my mouth real tight. Then I heard a voice say, "this is what you have been praying for, open your mouth."

When I let my hand off my mouth I cried out with a loud voice ABBA FATHER, and then It felt like someone was Breathing in my mouth and I could still Hear the wind and it was as if His breath was going inside my mouth and returning back to Him and all the while I was speaking in a language I did not know. And it was not a few syllables mind you, But an actual language.

My daughter, 9 years old at that time, was crying and asking everyone how her mother learned to speak in that language. I later found out that one of the ladies there told her it was "angel talk". Its real i thought! This is for real. And it changed my whole life.

Several years later, I was facing some rocky paths as we as believers sometimes do. Its not all mountain tops ya know. I was home alone, in my kitchen, desperate, and literally on my face on my kitchen floor crying out to the Lord for Mercy. I just kept crying out to Him to please have Mercy upon me and my household.

I never told anyone of this, not even my husband. The following Wed night prayer meeting, a lady I did not even know (some of the assembly knew her for she had attended there before I started going) came up behind me, put her hand on my shoulder. I turned around and she said, ma'am, I have a word for you from the Lord. I do not know what it means but He has instucted me to tell you. I was very sceptical but I said, okay what is it?

She said the Lord told her to tell me that while I was on my face on my kitchen floor He heard my cries for Mercy. Thats was it. Thats all she told me. But that was enough. Talk about bolstering ones faith, especially about prayer. Does He hear us. You bet He does.

Now let me say this. We are not there anymore. You see, the enemy stepped in, and folks, the battle ground in most cases is at the Church. The gifts started being abused. Yes I believe we can abuse the gifts. Everything should be done in order as Paul states, especially where tongues in the assembly are concerned. Our pastor had no problem correcting those out of order, but then he retired. We got a new pastor and he was a novice and the next thing you know it became a real circus. I wont go into it here but need to say that I believe God did lead us there.

My husband is currently studying for his pastorialship in messianic studies from a Yeshiva in St. Petersburg FL. Most he does online and attends the school several times a year down in Fl.

I am a worship minister and we attend a small congregation but sweet one just the same. I have only heard tongues once in the assembly followed by an interpretation. Most but not all the congregants believe in the gifts. But its not something we dwell on. God gives different gifts to different people for His specific purpose. It is not a salvation issue.

The gift of tongues is just as real as any of the other gifts. But we must exercise them in a way that is scriptural. Seems there was one in the bible that wanted the gift for his own purpose and was strongly rebuked by Peter I believe. I doubted that gift for many years, but I am a believer now.

[Sherman]

The real outstanding problem with emphasizing the speaking in "heavenly mumbo-jumbo" is that NOWHERE does Holy Scripture promote such! Never once. ALL biblical languages are KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD, EARTHLY languages known to humankind. Again, even angels, when they spoke in Holy Writ, always spoke in languages KNOWN to the listeners. Always in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. Never once in a "divine gibberish" in talking with men or in praise to the Sovereign Lord of Glory. One more time then: the classic Acts Two passage re "speaking in languages" (Acts 2:8-11) at the introduction of the Blessed Holy Spirit at the time of Pentecost, underscores the fact that the "tongues" spoken in this initial instance were KNOWN, NATIONAL, UNDERSTOOD & EARTHLY languages of man, and never "ladia, sphona, te te terra, ada aba terum, keri kera enphona, oda odet cumma se se" as emphasized in modern charismatic circles. And, to boot, "tongues" did indeed "cease of themselves" as a phenomenon over long centuries of time until an A.D. 1901 re-commencement of "heavenly gibberish" ala Azusa Pentecostal assembly! Incredulous indeed! And quite significant as well. One never ceases to be amazed at the ability of some kind folk to read into settled Holy Scripture a "divine mumbo-jumbo" which is nowhere found there. The Bible is quite clear. It remains quite difficult, does it not, to unring a biblical bell? Amen!

Arthur,

I assume that you can read because you are writing, but apparently you missed a few of the previous posts. One more time:

1 Cor. 14:2 says, "he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

1 Cor. 14:14 says, "if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." NKJV

To make it even simpler for you, the New Living Translation says:

1 Cor. 14:14, "if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understant what I'm saying."

1 Cor. 14:2, "if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious."

And then of course, Mark 16:16 speaks of believers speaking in "new tongues", so are these "new" as in "new to the world", or "new" as in "new and unknown to the one speaking", or "new" as in "new to those hearing it"? It doesn't specify but Corinthians helps us understand what Jesus likely meant by it, "new" as in not understood by the one speaking or by those hearing, but only understood by God.

So one who speaks in tongues does not understand what he's saying, and if anyone hears him they do not understand what he's saying. So the language is unknown to him and those that hear him, and only God can understand it. I think we can safely and scripturally call that an "unknown tongue."

You also mentioned what happened in Acts 2, but your understanding and assertions concerning that passage misrepresent what happened. The Apostles and others gathered and all were baptized in the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. It says that everyone heard them speaking in their own languages. This can be understood a couple of different ways.

1) Seeing that there were 18+ different mother tongues present, the believers gathered were simultaneously speaking supernaturally in 18+ different languages. Those listening in the street heard through the commotion and were amazed that someone in that group was speaking their language. How they could hear one out of so many is difficult to grasp; but even more so, why they would be amazed that someone in the group could speak their language? One other person in a crowd of strangers speaking in your mother tongue is just not very amazing. If I understand you correctly Arthur, this is what you believe occured. I suppose it's possible, it just doesn't fit the text very well.

2) The believers were baptized in the Spirit, speaking in tongues unknown to them. The crowd gathers and is amazed, bewildered that everyone heard them speaking in their mother tongue. So the believers were praising God in tongues unknown to them (miracle 1) and each person in the crowd that gathered heard the believers praising God in their mother tongue. (miracle 2) So the French were hearing French, Russians - Russian, English - English, Romans - Italian, Arabs - Arabic, etc. So God not only empowered the believers to speak in an unknown language, but He empowered the crowd to understand what was being said! This understanding makes a lot more sense to me.

Concerning Church history, and the outpouring of the Spirit in the early 1900's, yes there was a major outpouring of the Spirit during that time, but others ever since the birth of the Church have also been baptized in the Holy Spirit. But really that doesn't prove anything either way. What's important is what the Word says.

Authur, in the crowd at Pentecost, there were those who mocked the believers because they were speaking in tongues. Sadly, you are doing the same thing they did, mocking those who have received the Baptism in the Spirit and speak in tongues. You would be wise to repent and align yourself with believers rather than the crowd that mocks God's people.

Sincerely,

Sherman

Edited March 2, 2007 by Sherman

[matthew4:4]

Ok, again I will be glad to discover the truth in all of this. Let me say first that whoever gave me the list of modern prophets to look up I have already found two of them to be teachers of heresies and declare false prophesies. Pat Robertson and Rick Joyner. Plus, dont think Ive already heard that Benny Hinn has supposedly repented three times. Its funny that people still listen to him. If you are a false prophet, God is not with you. Ok. thats obvious. I dont think I need to cite scripture but I will if necessary. So, Benny Hinn never did perform miracles and still doesnt. Well maybe he does with satan's power. But lets not even talk about him cause I could bury you in evidence that he contradicts the bible. He has never repented publicly and I would love for you to show me otherwise cause in all seriousness I would love for him to change. But for him to do that he would have to step down from his ministry. Would a university ever let a teacher continue to teach if he taught false teachings. No!. They would revoke his license. Unfortunately in Hinn's case, he is the president of his money raking, con artist scam so he will never step down. He is completly dumbfounded in his wealth and power. To listen to a word that man says is supporting heresy regardless if its something true or not. His errors are tremendous. We can forgive him if he truly repents but that in no way means we should believe him again. Dont be fooled by false prophets. Trust only what the Lord declares. Hinn came to where I live about a month and a half ago. I researched everything about him for about two weeks. I know what Im talking about

Anyway, lets get to the gifts. First of all, I want to see how you would reply to arthurs points. Unless he has not interpreted the greek correctly I would say its pretty obvious it is not talking about the second coming. Christ is not a that which is. And you are right. It does not mention the bible but it also does not mention the second coming of christ. You cant look for specifics like that here. Hes not going to come right out and tell you because he has a specific way of talking. So what your saying does not prove your point any more than it proves mine.

Also, I cant belive you would say we would need faith or hope in heaven. Love is something that always has been and always will. That is why its importance over all is shown but faith and hope... Why would you need faith? Faith is a belief in something. We will not need to believe in anything because we will know! And what could we possibly need hope for? First of all there is nothing to hope for because we are with God and in his love. That is what we truly want and have been hoping for. And even if we needed something esle we would not hope God would do it because we would know God would do it.

And please, I never said it was erroraneous. I even said that sure, there is a chance but with the strong evidence pointing toward no spiritual gifts its very tough to accept that they still exist

lastly, tell me what you mean by spiritual baptism because if your talking about some ritual that the charismatics and pentecostals made up then please show me where that ritual is in the bible. Show me everything you can find about spirit baptism. I believe it is when Jesus comes into your heart. I believe men in the bible were able to recieve the gifts right at that moment. Ok, now please try to reply to mine and arthur's replys as unbiased as possible. Your brother in Christ, matthew

P.S. Floating Axe, we really cant listen to your remarks because you cite no scripture or evidence. Your remarks are always just to tell us we are wrong. And if you think I would listen to what the Devil tells me to believe you're wrong. I ask God to show me the truth everyday.

Good afternoon Matthew,

There are a few things about your previous post that I would like to address.

First, if you don't believe that the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge exist today, then of course, you'll be predisposed to classify anyone who prophesies or operates in the spiritual gifts as false prophets. And of course, if it's true that these spiritual gifts have ceased and are not for today, then all of us who believe that they are, well, we're walking in deception and if we do prophecy then we are not doing so by the Spirit of God, but, at best, by our own wishful thinking, at worst, under the influence of an evil spirit. That is, "IF these spiritual gifts have ceased and are not for today."

Of course, if these spiritual gifts are for today, then those who don't believe they are for today are the ones walking in deception and believing and teaching the lies satan. And if you believe that the spiritual gifts are not for today, then when you examine any minister or ministry that claims to operate in these spiritual gifts, you'll be predisposed to judge them as false prophets. So talking about them does no one any good.

Of course, based on my understanding of the Bible, I believe that these spiritual gifts are for today. Not only do I believe they are for today, but I've also operated in them and seen others operate in them. I've personally seen and/or experienced tongues, the interpretation of tongues, prophecy, miracles, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, healings, gift of faith, and discerning of spirits. But regardless of what I've personally experienced and seen, what's important is what the Word teaches.

Concerning Arthur's points, I responded to those in the reply to him. Basically, even the NLT, which was translated by an interdenominational board of Greek scholars, translates 1 Cor. 13:8-13 in a distant futuristic context refering to the end of this age. Even if that's not the case, reading into the passage that "perfect" refers to the completed NT is completely erroneous; the context in no way points to this.

I also addressed what Paul said concerning faith, hope, and love. First of all the point of the passage is that spiritual gifts will not be needed. And in heaven we will have faith (trust in God), hope (good things to look forward to), and love. Things have got to be understood in the light of the context. A Text without a Context is a Pretext (an assumed meaning that often misses the author's intent)! If you take "perfect" or "faith, hope, and love" out of context, you can make them say anything you want them to say.

Concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit being seperate from being born of the Spirit. The Apostles were born of the Spirit under Jesus' ministry, remember when He breathed on them and said "receive the Spirit". But even thought they had been born of the Spirit, He told them to wait until the received the power of the Spirit, which is later identified as the Gift of the Spirit in Acts 2. There is also the case of the Samaritans in Acts 8. They believed and were baptized in water under Phillip's ministry. Later Peter and John came and ministered to them the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. These two examples alone are sufficient to show that there is a difference between being Born of the Spirit, and being Baptized in the Spirit. Being Born of the Spirit is like taking a drink of living water. Being Baptized in the Holy Spirit is like drowning in an ocean of living water. It's the same medium, but two very different realities. In the first, you very much retain control. When you are baptized in the Spirit you, in faith, submit youself to the influence of the Spirit.

So Matthew, if you haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit, I pray that you will soon. By the way, Acts 2:38 says that the Gift of the Spirit, as in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, this promise is "to you, and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." So if you've been called by the Lord, then the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is for you like it was for the first Apostles. Hallelujah!!!!

I encourage you to read through Acts and note all of the places the Holy Spirit is mentioned and what happened. Just think, you to can minister in the power of the Spirit that the Apostles operated in!

Blessings,

Sherman

P.S. Concerning being "unbiased", I can't do that and I don't think any of us can. We all see the truth through colored, warped lenses. Anyone who thinks they have perfect sight, complete understanding of the Word is really Blind. The best I can hope to do is come from a place of recognizing that I could be wrong, and do my best to listen to and respect you and your beliefs though we differ greatly. I love to wrestly over (study) the Word with people who understand things differently than I do. Whether I win or loose, I win! If I win the debate, I am more firmly grounded in the Word and hopefully have won a brother. If I loose, I gain even more, I gain a greater grasp on the Truth and am delivered from error, false beliefs, Hallelujah!

P.S.S. By the way, you're correct in that we will not "need" faith or hope or even love in heaven. We will "have" faith, hope, and love! Glory to God! Even so, though we "have" them, they remain!

Thanks for the very good reply but you still havent completly clarified some things. Umm, first of all how do you believe you are baptized by the spirit. If Jesus had to breath on them, then how do I recieve it? Also, I still think it makes no sense to say there will be faith and hope in heaven. I believe now that, that part is in reference to now. So, its really not talking about heaven. We need faith and hope now. It only says Love will never fail. Also, I will not be predisposed to rule out prophets of today. If they would prophecy something that would actually come true I would believe. But then it would make it too easy for unbelievers to believe as well. But I will look at their prophecies with an open mind. But for example lets look at some of Benny Hinn's. He prophesied that in 95 or 96 all the homosexuals in the united states would be wiped out by fire. WRONG! He prophesied that Castro would die in 2000. WRONG! He prophesied that God told him he would be building a huge christian rejuvination center in Texas and would need to raise a lot of money for it. He later said that God told him it was not the right time after he had already raised money for it. That building has still not been built. This is the problem. People like him who ruin it for people like me. Im willing to look at others prophesies and see wether they come true. Just because I dont quite believe doesnt mean its not true so I will honestly take a look at it. Just find me some quoted prophesies and show where they came true. Unfortunately, I dont believe you'll be able to. I believe in the other gifts but the thing is it just says that prophecy, tongues, and the gift of knowledge will cease. So why doesnt it say the others? Because maybe you couldnt use the other ones to write the bible? And, again I have had encounters with people supposedly using the gifts of the spirit and it was when I believed that those specific ones existed. But there was nothing they said that was at all prophetic to me. And the tongues was spoken out of turn with no one to interpret. Thats wrong! I believe they dont have an interpreter because its easy to think your really speaking in tongues. But to believe you understand what the person is saying means you either truly have the gift or you're a liar. And if the gift of interrpreting is there than why do I never see anyone using it. Everyone seems to claim to be able to speak in tongues though. Its just a little strange. But, anyway I also like this discussion sherman. And trust me I would love to have a gift of the spirit but I havent recieved any and I had asked for them in the past when I believed in prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Again, send me some quoted prophesies because I really want to see it. Your bro in Christ, matthew

[matthew4:4]

Matthew: Some of your posts can be construed as kind of insulting. Your post #92 said this to Floatingaxe;