Baptism

[sagz4Christ]

funny....

I thought that I would stay out of this thread....but I just ran across some wonderful information that I would like to share with people.

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

Gregory Koukl

Are we saved because we are baptized, or vice-versa?

As far as I know, there is no place in Scripture that actually says that salvation occurs at baptism. There are a couple of verses that, at least at first glance, may appear that way. I think the Peter passage says "baptism now saves you," but it goes on to clarify what it means. "Not the washing of dirt from the body." In other words, it's not a reference to water on flesh there, but an appeal to God for a clean conscience. I was just reading today in the book of Acts, as Paul gave his testimony in Jerusalem, he mentions that he was told when he was blind to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins. So there is a suggestion that that may be the case there. However, there are so many other counter-indications in Scriptures that I think there must be another understanding for that verse.

I would say that salvation happens at the moment you are regenerated. We can discuss how that happens. Do I choose and then God regenerates me? Personally, I think that God does the choosing and that He changes us in such a way as we make a decision for Him, so I am not offended at all by decision theology. What happened when Peter said in Acts 2, "Repent and be baptized....Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." He was asking for people to make a decision. Change your mind. Come down and have a public demonstration of this change of mind by immersing yourself in water. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is a decision that is enjoined. My personal feeling is, the decision can't be made unless the Holy Spirit is already working on you in a dramatic fashion.

To put it more specifically, I guess, I'd have to say that I don't think that you can make an outward manifestation of a decision for Christ unless you have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit in a prior fashion. It's the regeneration that God works in you that allows you to make this outward manifestation of coming forward or making a decision. I don't think the decision saves you. I think God's sovereign act of selection and election saves you, it brings you into the kingdom and it's manifested in these external actions.

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you hear the message, you believe, you are sealed. It's all part of the package. Nothing is said of baptism.

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If that is the case, obviously it is very clear that baptism doesn't save you because baptism happens after the decision, which happens after the regeneration, which is when you get your new birth. Here is the way I would argue that more explicitly.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the decision coming before or after regeneration, I think it is really easy to show that baptism comes after regeneration. In Romans 8 Paul talks about those who are in the Spirit and those who are in the flesh. He means something very precise when he says that. He doesn't mean like modern day evangelicals mean that when they are in the Spirit that means that they are walking with the Lord and have their eyes on the Lord, and when they are in the flesh they are sinning and really screwing up. He means those words to be synonymous with regeneration and utter fallenness. In other words, those who are in the Spirit are those who are regenerate. Those who are in the flesh are those who are unregenerate.

Another way of putting it is those who are in the Spirit are by definition those who are saved. And those who are not in the Spirit, or rather in the flesh, are those who are not saved. He says that if you are in the flesh it is impossible to please God because you don't even desire to do so. The flesh can't please God, it says in verse 8. However you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

This is what makes the definition clearer. You are in the Spirit if the Spirit dwells in you. Period. If you are regenerate, you are in the Spirit, by his definition. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

If you are saved, you are regenerated by virtue of the fact that the Holy Spirit is now in you. If you don't have the Spirit, you are out of it. If you do have the Spirit, you are in. It's very clear.

Now the question becomes, when does a man get the Spirit? Ephesians 1:13 says, "In Him, Christ, you also after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." So, you hear the message, you believe, you are sealed. It's all part of the package. Nothing is said of baptism.

1 John 5 puts it a little differently. He says, "If you have the Son, you have eternal life. If you don't have the son, you don't have eternal life. I am writing these things to you who believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God in order that you may know that you have eternal life." So you have eternal life connected with the Son, who we understand in the New Testament economy is in the person of the Spirit--the Spirit of Christ, in other words. If you have the Son living inside of you, then you have eternal life, and if you don't, you don't. This is a watershed way of understanding salvation because John says, I want you to understand this so you can know , be certain, be confident of the fact of eternal life. That is, that Jesus lives within you in the Person of the Spirit.

Now the last defense for that comes from the book of Acts. In Acts 15 we see Peter at the Jerusalem Council there making a defense for bringing the gospel to the gentiles because a lot of the Jews were upset because Peter had gone to the gentiles with the gospel. He had gone into the home of Cornelius the Centurion in Acts 10. He says, Listen, here's the deal. God made it really clear to me that I had to go talk to this guy. The vision of the sheet with the hoofed animals and everything. And then he says, I was chosen by God to go to the gentiles and here is what happened. God who knows the heart (verse 8) bore witness to them giving them the Holy Spirit just as He also did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Peter is saying, these gentiles got the Holy Spirit and they were cleansed by faith. In other words, they are brothers and sisters in Christ. Notice again, no reference there to baptism. However, in the incident itself that he is recounting here in Acts 15, there is a reference to baptism. This is Acts 10 where you actually read the account itself. Peter begins to declare the gospel in Acts 10:34, "Opening his mouth Peter said...," and it goes on to explain the gospel. He starts giving this presentation and right in the middle of this presentation, in fact, verse 44 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon those who were listening to the message." Now what are we going to conclude by that? That the Holy Spirit fell upon those who that were listening. Would it be fair to assume that these people have just been regenerated? It says that all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. They were saved, regenerated.

Now watch this, verse 46, "For they were hearing them speak with tongues and exalting God. 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did.'" Whoa, here's where the water comes in. It's coming in after regeneration. After they have certainty that they belong to God because now they are in the Spirit. After they have been regenerated. After they have Jesus inside of them, having been cleansed by faith. After they have the certain knowledge that they have eternal life, according to John in 1 John 5. Now the water comes into play.

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When people become Christian, they get baptized as they ought because Jesus commanded it. But they get baptized because they've been saved, regenerated, not in order to get saved.

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To me, this is a very profound biblical proof that water is not necessary for salvation.

With all the respect I have for Lutherans, my theology is principally reformed, so I am pretty much in lock step with them on many things. I think they just missed it here. My personal feeling is that this is a carry over from Romanism. It just was the habit of Luther and the others raised in this environment to baptize infants and so they kept doing it and they sought a biblical justification. But I don't think the biblical justification is sound whether the justification is being voiced by Lutherans, or by Roman Catholics, or by Mormons, or by Oneness Pentecostals, or by the L.A. Church of Christ. All of those people are arguing inaccurately about the necessity of baptism for salvation. Baptism does not accomplish regeneration. The explanation that I gave you is a pretty good case against such a thing.

When salvation is referred to doctrinally as a theological reality itself, baptism does not come into the picture. We see baptism happening connected with salvation, but incidental to the act of salvation. In other words, it doesn't procure salvation. When people become Christian, they get baptized as they ought because Jesus commanded it. But they get baptized because they've been saved, regenerated, not in order to get saved. We see that clearly in Acts 10 and Peter argues that even with the Jewish Council there in Acts 15. That's pretty straightforward, as far as I'm concerned.

There was also a question about what part does the will play. We make a contribution and God makes a contribution to the issue of salvation. What is our contribution or the contribution of our will? The human contribution to salvation is sin. Man's contribution makes it necessary for him to be saved. The choice of our will is rebellion against God because we are lost so utterly. Because our will is set against God, He has to intervene and save us Himself by changing our will.

Some people might get upset about that. "God doesn't tamper with your free will." That's not in the Bible. It just is not there. If God changes your will to love Him, it doesn't make you into a robot because you have a free will that operates in some measure. In our fallenness, we don't have the free will to pursue Him. Our will turns us away from Him. God must change our will and conform it to His both to work and to will for His good pleasure in order that we can turn to Him.

God is a necessary element in this. He provides all of the positive direction for our salvation. It's not like we are both doing it. My will and His will, no. My will is going the other direction, in fact. It's His will that changes my will to turn to Him. Once we do that, we make a choice from a human perspective. We go forward, we raise our hand, we say, Yes I confess Jesus. Those are all things that we do and they are meaningful because they are acts of our will. But they are acts of our will which has already been touched by the Holy Spirit.

reference: str.org

[endure4salvation]

The major problem with Christian doctrine today is the unwillingness to take off the theologically biased glasses of denominationalism and read the entire NT and take each verse that deals with salvation and form doctrine from them.

People take a few verses that deal with faith (or whatever) and exalt them over all others and claim that anything that doesn't agree fully with their ideas are heresy.

Romans 10:17 tells us that hearing the Gospel is required for salvation.

John 3:16 tells us that only belief (faith) is required for salvation.

James 2 teaches that it takes more then just belief--it takes good works as well.

Luke 13:3 teaches that repentance is required for salvation.

Colossians 1:21-23 tells us that endurance is required for salvation.

Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:12 and others tell us that baptism is required for salvation.

See what happens when we take all verses that deal with salvation and then form our doctrine?

[Guest Calamity]

Well, for what it's worth or not worth, here's my take on it.

Yes, they were told to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. They baptized in the name of Jesus, at least in most places that it records it. To me, that is another area that shows that Jesus is GOD, like some think He is not. I do believe that God is a Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), but I don't think the disciples were disobeying when they baptized in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is God.

Second - I also believe baptism is NOT part of the Gospel, and is NOT a requirement for salvation:

The Gospel is, according to this, basically the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Cor.15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

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It says nothing about baptism being a part of the Gospel Paul was preaching, or that they were saved by.

Also, if baptism was part of the Gospel and NECESSARY for salvation, why would Paul have said this about him NOT having baptised many?

I Cor. 1

[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

OK, that's my understanding of both the subjects going here on this thread.

[JesusisGod2]

Well, for what it's worth or not worth, here's my take on it.

Yes, they were told to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. They baptized in the name of Jesus, at least in most places that it records it. To me, that is another area that shows that Jesus is GOD, like some think He is not. I do believe that God is a Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), but I don't think the disciples were disobeying when they baptized in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is God.

Second - I also believe baptism is NOT part of the Gospel, and is NOT a requirement for salvation:

The Gospel is, according to this, basically the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Cor.15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

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It says nothing about baptism being a part of the Gospel Paul was preaching, or that they were saved by.

Also, if baptism was part of the Gospel and NECESSARY for salvation, why would Paul have said this about him NOT having baptised many?

I Cor. 1

[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

OK, that's my understanding of both the subjects going here on this thread. 

For what its worth?

Calamity my sister,

I'll tell ya, what you have just declared is worth its weight in gold, if not more. very keen insight praise God.

Short and to the point you get thumbs up.

Thanks for sharing that

In Jesus

Kevin

[JesusisGod2]

funny....

I thought that I would stay out of this thread....but I just ran across some wonderful information that I would like to share with people.

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

Gregory Koukl

Are we saved because we are baptized, or vice-versa?

My personal feeling is, the decision can't be made unless the Holy Spirit is already working on you in a dramatic fashion.

To put it more specifically, I guess, I'd have to say that I don't think that you can make an outward manifestation of a decision for Christ unless you have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit in a prior fashion. It's the regeneration that God works in you that allows you to make this outward manifestation of coming forward or making a decision. I don't think the decision saves you. I think God's sovereign act of selection and election saves you, it brings you into the kingdom and it's manifested in these external actions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you hear the message, you believe, you are sealed. It's all part of the package. Nothing is said of baptism.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was also a question about what part does the will play. We make a contribution and God makes a contribution to the issue of salvation. What is our contribution or the contribution of our will? The human contribution to salvation is sin. Man's contribution makes it necessary for him to be saved. The choice of our will is rebellion against God because we are lost so utterly. Because our will is set against God, He has to intervene and save us Himself by changing our will.

Some people might get upset about that. "God doesn't tamper with your free will." That's not in the Bible. It just is not there. If God changes your will to love Him, it doesn't make you into a robot because you have a free will that operates in some measure. In our fallenness, we don't have the free will to pursue Him. Our will turns us away from Him. God must change our will and conform it to His both to work and to will for His good pleasure in order that we can turn to Him.

God is a necessary element in this. He provides all of the positive direction for our salvation. It's not like we are both doing it. My will and His will, no. My will is going the other direction, in fact. It's His will that changes my will to turn to Him. Once we do that, we make a choice from a human perspective. We go forward, we raise our hand, we say, Yes I confess Jesus. Those are all things that we do and they are meaningful because they are acts of our will. But they are acts of our will which has already been touched by the Holy Spirit.

reference:    str.org

Hi Sagz,

Glad you decided not to stay out of it, this is a very good article and I totally agree with the insight given here.

I hope you dont mind me hacking your post here , but there are some things here that allude to predestination of which although I cant explain very well I am in agreement with.

Such as the bit about before baptism, they were already regenerated, this was very beautiful what this man said about the gentiles being converted, and would also like to add something that for some reason he overlooked.

Acts 11:18 "When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying "God has granted to the gentiles also repentance that leads to life""

In Romans 9:15-16 "for He saith unto Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion

So then, it is not of him that willeth,

nor on him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."

There are many others that back this mans position, and I am not trying to start a debate on predestination.

Just trying to point out that salnation is totally of God, everything else is a response to Him and a testimony to His greatness.

Now God already knows who is going to be saved, and the reason I think he even uses us to seek the lost is to learn to be like Him. I know this is a tough thing to grasp and I am not saying I totally understand it.

Paul in the wisdom given by God knew this teaching would not fit well with many and he addresses it in Romans 9:18-20

Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardenth

Thou wilt say unto me, Why doth He still find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?...."

This is a pretty tough teaching and one I have trouble explaining, I just believe it as true, and praise God that He has had mercy on me.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Guest Calamity]

Well, for what it's worth or not worth, here's my take on it.

Yes, they were told to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. They baptized in the name of Jesus, at least in most places that it records it. To me, that is another area that shows that Jesus is GOD, like some think He is not. I do believe that God is a Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), but I don't think the disciples were disobeying when they baptized in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is God.

Second - I also believe baptism is NOT part of the Gospel, and is NOT a requirement for salvation:

The Gospel is, according to this, basically the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Cor.15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

---------

It says nothing about baptism being a part of the Gospel Paul was preaching, or that they were saved by.

Also, if baptism was part of the Gospel and NECESSARY for salvation, why would Paul have said this about him NOT having baptised many?

I Cor. 1

[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

OK, that's my understanding of both the subjects going here on this thread.

[endure4salvation]

I feel that obedience to Christ's commands is necissary for salvation (as He clearly taught), and baptism is a direct commandment of Christ (the great commission), so baptism is required for salvation.

Endure, I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this.

Oh, boy!

This thread was not meant to be what it is turning in to be. Baptism is a direct commandment of Jesus that all of his disciples must be baptized. If you want to discuss this, then we should start a new thread that deals with it--not overtake someone elses thread.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Jesus is the only name ever given under heaven to be baptised. When it says to baptise in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. What is the name of the Father? It's not God cause God is a title. It's like Pastor isn't your pastors name it's his title. The only name ever given for God came through His son. Jesus. What is the Sons name? Jesus! What is the name of the Holy Spirit? Again Holy Spirit is a title. Jesus. You will notice the verse in Matther does not tell you to baptise in the NAMES (plural), but in the NAME. One name. The only name that can cover is Jesus!

[Guest CatscanCam]

Here is a commentary I wrote for my site about baptism, maybe this will help.

A while ago my wife and I were discussing baptism. At first we disagreed on some points until I did a bit of research. We wanted to find out if in order to be saved you had to be baptized. Many Christians have claimed that one cannot be saved without being baptized and cite John 3:5 as evidence; Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Every Christian who honestly desires to know what God really requires for salvation needs to be willing to ask this question. If we are wrong on this question, we have serious, eternal error.

Let's look at the above verse in context to try and figure out what "born of water" actually refers to.

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' (John 3:3-7)

There are two conditions to enter the kingdom of God. Which comes first?

"Born of water," according to the verse. Does baptism precede being born of the Spirit in the believer? Jesus clarifies what he means in the next verse,

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Being born of water is referring to being born physically (the water referring to amniotic fluid that breaks as one is born). This is why he said, "You must be born again." The first birth is the birth from water, or the flesh. The second is to be born of the Spirit, which is of God. I think it is pretty clear that the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the first birth. At this point, the "entering" is for anyone who is born again (ie., born of the Spirit).

Let's go over the specific text in question. Verse 3 says that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Verse 5 says that one must be born of water AND the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. The text tells us that these requirements are one and the same.

In stating that one must be born again, Jesus referred to 2 births-the first, the physical birth. Nicodemus recognized this as the first requirement, since he stated that a man cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb (John 3:4). In the very next statement he explains the two kinds of birth. "Born of water" refers to the physical birth, whereas "born of the Spirit" refers to being

"born again" or the second birth. In the next verse, Jesus clarifies the statement explaining that "born of water" refers to being "born of flesh." Jesus was clear and direct. There is no mention of baptism anywhere. "Born of water" never refers to baptism in any other verse in the Bible.

The Greek word used is "hudor" (Strong's # G5204). The Greek word for baptism is "baptisma" (Strong's #G908), if Jesus had wanted to refer to baptism, He would have used this word. In fact, the word (or variation of it) occurs 112 times in the New Testament.

Why did Jesus use different verbs, "see" in verse 3 vs. "enter" in verse 5? It is a common practice in teaching to use different words to explain the same concept. By doing so, one keeps the attention of your student. And Jesus was an excellent teacher, who used this technique often. Take a look at another teaching about the kingdom of God:

But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Luke 18:16-17)

In the first verse, Jesus says that the kingdom of God "belongs" to children. In the second, He says that one must receive the kingdom as a child in order to "enter". Is belonging and entering different? Yes, these are different verbs, but the point is the same. Likewise, one cannot enter the kingdom of God without seeing it.

Jesus often used multiple parables to illustrate the same spiritual truths. You can confirm this yourself by reading virtually any chapter in any of the gospels.

A general observation of the ministry of Jesus Christ reveals that He mentions baptism only once. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:15-16)

Here He says that "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", if you were to stop reading here you would understand this to mean that in order to be saved you would have to be baptized. The verse does not stop there but goes on to say "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." So it is the believing or rather the lack of which condemns a person. Belief is the inward reception of Christ, and baptism is the outward testimony of that belief.

In addition, Jesus never baptized anyone to our knowledge, The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. (John 4:1-2). In fact, it seems that He sent the people off after being healed without baptism. Obviously, He gave the command to His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism is an outward expression of what has already occurred within an individual. Jesus didn't need to see that outward expression of an individual's conversion, since, being God; He already knew what was in their heart.

Jesus spoke very often about faith-at least 27 examples given in the gospels:

Matthew 8:26, Matthew 9:2, Matthew 9:22, Matthew 9:29, Matthew 14:31, Matthew 15:28, Matthew 16:8, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 2:5, Mark 4:40, Mark 5:34, Mark 10:52, Mark 11:22, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:9, Luke 7:50, Luke 8:25, Luke 8:48, Luke 12:28, Luke 17:5, Luke 17:6, Luke 17:19, Luke 18:8, Luke 18:42, Luke 23:32. Could it be that faith is the key to having a relationship with God and not baptism?

The idea that baptism is required for justification perpetuates the Jewish notion of salvation through works of the law, which were repudiated by the apostles (Acts 10:44-11:18, 15:1-11, Romans 3:30, Galatians 2, Galatians 5, Philippians) and the early church fathers. Yes, I believe one should be baptized in obedience to Jesus' example. However, we should also love our neighbor for the same reason. I know that we do not keep this entire command, because only God can demonstrate this kind of unconditional love. Does this mean that we will lose our salvation? No!

We are justified on the basis of faith alone (true faith-not an uncommitted confession of some belief). If anyone is trusting in any work of the flesh, then they put themselves under the entire law of God and are held accountable to keep it all! (James 2:10, Galatians 3:10, Romans 2:12, 3:20)

It is the response of faith on the occasion of baptism that saves. In early Christianity water baptism was much more closely linked to the initial confession of faith than is often the case today.

We receive many wonderful gifts through baptism, but the most important role of baptism is to identify us with Jesus and with other believers who follow him. Baptism is our profession of faith. This is why the first Christians declared their faith in Christ at baptism by saying, "Jesus is Lord." The Apostles' Creed and other statements of faith were also associated with baptism. Baptism involved more than correct belief, though. It was an induction into a new way of life. It signaled a lifelong process of learning and living according to the gospel of Christ.

Even Paul, a disciple of Christ downplayed baptism; For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1 Cor 1:17)

Paul was not speaking against baptism. He did baptize a few. However, it's possible some Corinthians believed baptism guaranteed spiritual maturity and security, and Paul seemed to play down such views.

"We, like the Israelites baptized in the cloud and sea, (see 1 Cor 10:1-5) are not guaranteed salvation simply by baptism. More than water is required to be a disciple. " (from side note in 'The Quest' Bible).

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. (1 Peter 3:18-22)

[Guest tiggr]

What consttutes being born of water, does a C- section count? If you read those scriptures again you will see that Jesus was not talking about natural birth. He said unless a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God. (that denotes being born once already). When Nicodemus didnt understand Jesus goes into more deatail for him and explainsto him what it means to be born again. Unless a man be born of the water and of the Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God. Once agian Mark 16:16 he that beleiveth and is baptized shall be saved, how can any one say that Jesus does not mean for us to be baptized this scripture alone refutes that. Was Jesus just saying that for fun, was he making it up? NO. If he said it then he meant it. We have taken what he has said and tried to find a way around it seems, and if my memory serves me right the Israelites did the same thing and lost out.