WAR WITH IRAQ

[Guest shilou]

Hi WIP

Thanks for not staying angry. I don't know about the Marines, my son talked with all the other branches and they were quite pushy. My son is a math wiz and the Air Force offered to pay him to go to college at the UW Wisconsin ROTC. I'm not one for soldiering but the package started looking so good I was amazed he could turn it down. I understand you have alot of personal investment in this and I don't mean to make light of that. This is some pretty scary stuff. So if I offended you I'm sorry.

That said and back to the scripture of turning the other cheek I'm not so sure I can agree. Jesus said turn the other cheek and it is His example we are to follow. Can we agree on that? Not only did Christ go to the cross humbly and give up His life for us, but He also asked the Father to forgive those that put Him there. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Do the people we are going up against really understand the eternal consequences of their actions? They have lived in an atmosphere of deception all their lives, they know nothing else. So is there any way we could get past all of our personal feelings on this stuff and follow Christ? Could we reach past our own box and go to our knees and ask the Father to forgive them because they know not what they do? All the things that happen in this realm I believe are to test our meddle on a spiritual level. This does not mean those who do not get to a certain point are not saved. And I don't know what it does mean in the here after. But I do know as followers of Christ we are asked to step up to a higher ground and seek a heart like one of Jesus. Which to me means responding to the entire rest of the world in the spirit of Love. Call me whacked it just the way I see what Christ was trying to get across.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[Guest FishMan]

May I?

Shilou - with all due respect, you do not know what you are talking about.

I was a Marine Corps Recruiter for 3 years in Dallas, Texas, so I believe I can speak with some sense of authority.

Recruiters earn a commission just like a car sales man.

Bull Honkey.

We earn no more $ than what our particular rank is earning anywhere else in the Armed Forces.

Are we pressured from the top to put in quality individuals? Of course, but we are not paid anything above and beyond our regular pay to enlist a young man.

Furthermore, Shilou, the military is a big place, so I don't think you can come close to making an educated guess on the motives of America's youth as you have attempted when you said:

But because of the way most of America is today the military has to offer up some incentive otherwise our mostly self-centered youth wouldn't pay them a bit of attention. And I am not saying your son is of this variety but sadly most are including my niece.

"sadly MOST are"???????????????????

Your experience is based on knowing your niece and you feel like you can say "MOST ARE"???????

You are speaking where you ought not, my friend. The vast majority (99.9%) of the Marines I served with did it for one reason - to serve their country. Marines also join the Corps to be a Marine, period. It's a brotherhood, and not taken lightly by any of us. Apparently you do not realize that.

Furthermore, from my time on active duty from 1992-2000, I served aboard several naval vessels and got to know my fair share of sailors, and I saw the same commitment from them. I attended a 5-month school on an Air Force base and got to know Airmen, and I saw the same from them. I even participated in a combined Army-Marine Corps exercise in the desert for 8 weeks and saw the same from the Army dogs.

America's military is packed full of men ready to lay their lives on the line - not for college money, but for freedom, and because they feel it is their calling.

Please take my words into consideration as you revise your opinion.

God Bless America!

FishMan

Staff Sergeant

United States Marine Corps

1992 - Present

And proud of it.............

When I get to heaven, I'll walk up to the gate

To talk with ole' Saint Peter about my destined fate

The story is the same to him, the story he knows quite well...

"Another Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in hell!"

[Work in Progress]

No, Shilou, you didn't personally offend me, no need to apologize. The idea of someone ''using'' our Military for personal gain offended me. I think it's pretty obvious that the word "military" connotates a national defense. Why would someone join if they had no desire to defend their country? That is the purpose of the military. And, like I said - the thought of my son putting his safety in the hands of someone who did not share his calling and desire to defend is an upsetting thought. I'm trying to understand what you are talking about, but knowing how my son is, and the many boys I spent time with when visiting his bases, it is hard for me to understand.

As for "turn the other cheek":

First of all - Martyr was personally attacked. Not his view, but him personally. I thought that was ugly and wanted to support him. So, if I came on strong, that's where that came from.

Jesus said turn the other cheek and it is His example we are to follow. Can we agree on that?

Absolutely. In fact, I could do much better by remembering that teaching and applying it and not responding everytime someone is ugly.

However, all of Scripture must be taken in context. Yes, Jesus was a peaceful man - much of the time. But there were times when He wasn't "peaceful", but righteously angry and acted accordingly. And, above all, He always recognized the Omnicience and infallibly of God our father

and, I am sure we can also both agree that God has used war and warriors all throughout Scripture to accomplish His Divine purposes.

David himself, a great man-of God, said "He trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle ....." (Ps 144:1)

Personal Vengeance is wrong according to God. Defense and Just Restribution is not.God has established WAR as a judgement on a National level.

Joshua 10:40 - the conquest of Canan to make war against idolatrous people and claim the land that God gave them.

The RULES FOR WAR are in Deut. 20. Why did God make rules for something that is so "unchristian"? ? Please answer this specifically.

In Luke, Chapter 3, various groups of people came to John when he was preaching to them and asked "What then, shall we do??" When the SOLDIERS came, he did not tell them to get out of their ''ungodly'' profession. He said to them -

"Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation, and be satifsifed with your wages." IMPLICIT IMPLICATION and VALIDATION.

Jer 5:14,15,16,17

Jer 51:1

Ezek 30 22-26

Hosea 13:16 - Samaria will be held guilty for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little ones will be dashed in pieces and their pregnant women will be ripped open. Not very pacifist, or "turn the other cheek". Judgement and Just retribution.

IS 18:17

Is 13:16

Ex 32:25 - God COMMANDS war on wicked men and three thousand men die.

1 Samuel 18:17 - "Be a valiant man and fight for me and fight the Lord's battles......."

1 Sam 25:28 - "My lord is fighting the battle of THE LORD....."

Numbers 21: 1 -3 "And the Lord heard the cry of Israel and DELIVERED UP THE CANANNITES and Israel UTTERLY DESTROYED THEM AND THEIR CITIES."

Psalm 68:21 - "Surely God will shatter the heads of his enemies...."

I believe Pacifism is not only unbiblical, Shilou, but dangerous, as it aids our enemies - those that seek to destroy us.

I am not applying these remarks to the Iraq situation. There are things there that I agree AND disagree with. I am addressing these remarks to counteract pacifism and the (what I believe to be) false teaching that it is "unchristian" to engage in war. Once you take the entire Word of God in context, you can not refute that God sanctions war. So, you're problem is not that it is "unchristian", but that you don't like this particular political action we are now engaged in - and that is very different from claiming that it is "unchristian".

So is there any way we could get past all of our personal feelings on this stuff and follow Christ?

That implies that all who refuse this pacifist view do not follow Christ. Wrong. As you can see above - I give plenty of Scriptural backup against pacifism. To imply that we don't follow Christ is condescendingly offensive.

[Work in Progress]

FishMan - I was typing as you were posting.

A Big, hearty AMEN BROTHER!! And a big hug too - every word the truth.

And, I'm glad you addressed the age old perpetuated myth that recruiters "earn a commission". This is outright mistatement and untruth. Like you said - ALL recruiters get their same pay - whether they recruit 2 or 20.

Thank you for relaying your personal experience.

[Lanakila]

Recruiters are mostly NCO's too and work hard to meet the quotas that must be met to keep our military up to strength. Yes, I am afraid quite a few soldiers, sailors, marines, and even airmen join to get a free ride through college. But, now when that freeride, has to be paid for with service to your country, when its needs it most, they are copping out, and saying I didn't sign up for this. My answer to that is duh, its the military, and you signed up (for however long). There is no freeride. If something claims to be free, you can bet, that someone somewhere is lying. Free college money, huh? Sorry, but that isn't the deal, the deal is you owe the military so many years for that money, and if you are going to try to quit now, just because you don't like what you owe, then you are going to leavenworth or worse, for desertion.

Yes, I am opinionated on this. The ones that cop out, are leaving their buddies with the job, that should be shared. I am a veteran, my hubby is over there. The military is so much a part of my life, I can't disconnect from it, and be objective.

[Missy]

We have told this madman to not cross the line drawn in the sand so many times and given him deadline upon deadline with no results.

Personally I think that we should have taken care of this situation a long time ago.

It's no different when you tell your child don't do this or else and they do it anyway, watching to see if you will do what you said, and then you don't do anything but tell them they better not do it again, they see that they don't have to listen because you have no follow-thru.

The US has shown there is no follow-thru in this situation.  I say it's too late it should have been done a long time ago.

[tsth]

What does the Bible say about it?

http://www.intouch.org/War/index_38027182.html

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest shilou]

Thank You for the link tsth, that is what I have been trying to say. If we are not soldiers and are not there then what are we to be doing here. War may have been used by God to get His will done here, but is that because God likes war or because humans are rebellious? Yes David was a warrior, but don't just read that part. Read the entire thing, he gave up the blessing of building the temple of God because of that.

What it boils down to is a choice for each of us individually. I can choose to be a David which is good and be a warrior either literally or in my heart. Or I can choose to reach for a higher ground and beg for a heart like Christ. I have really had to struggle with this over the last year or so. Back then with all the suicide bombings going on my mind was more on justified vengence then on the concept of real love that encompasses a world, not just a nation. What it came down to for me was this. Can I carry the sword in my heart and truly share the message of Christ which is love. That message of love encompasses praying for all people and helping our soldiers and our soldiers families and extending a hand where ever it is required with no restraints. And to be able to truly say to the Father with all sincerity for those who are walking in darkness, Forgive them Father they know not what they do.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[Guest suzie]

While I certainly do not have the answer to peace or war, I feel somehow compelled to bring to peoples minds the Holocaust. Remember Hitler? We cringe at the films depicting the mass burial of innocent persons at one dictators hand.

[JohnS]

What it boils down to is a choice for each of us individually. I can choose to be a David which is good and be a warrior either literally or in my heart. Or I can choose to reach for a higher ground and beg for a heart like Christ.

And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'     Acts 13:22

Maybe it's only fear you feel. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

                                                       Love in Christ