John 14 and the New Jerusalem

[Openly Curious]

poohey and double poohey,

I have an earthly tabernacle now wherein the spirit of God resides in my earthen vessel of clay my body and I abide in Him and He in me on this earth. But my earthly tabernacle will perish at my death and I shall take up my new residence in the heavenly tabernacle the New Jerusalem where I have a permenant place prepared for me. Your teachings only tears away at one's faith and does nothing to build up believers. I don't agree with your assessments.

The textus receptus is the only correct translation in which you and I do not have a copy of that being the case I will stick to the fact that you are implying that I cannot rely on the word nor interpret it because it is not properly translated and is only doing harm to us poor believers who can't understand the word of God. As I have said you are only hurting the faith of others in holding to this flawed intelluctual teaching of yours. I do not wish to argue with you but you are way out there on this one.

OC

I have implied nothing about your understanding or your ability to interpret the Word. Why do you feel compelled to draw conclusions as to what my "implications" are? John 14 is abundantly clear to any reader who has an ear to hear what the Lord has to say. Have you nothing to say regarding the author's point other than "phoohey"?

Yes I did have something to say in this regards and I said it back it post # 52 I draw my conclusions from the things you have so stated within this thread as a whole. My phoohey is not to the author which is the Holy Spirit but to your interpretation of what was written because basically whether you realize it or not you are implying that Jesus lied to us and we don't really have a dwelling place as you are teaching that we are the mansion ourselves and that the Holy City New Jerusalem is a figment of our imagination that is doing the church grave harm as you stated in your previous post and that we are so carnal that we think of everything in a worldly manner eating phesant every night and playing with our X-boxes as I stated this previously. Well you only imply the word is destructive to us and cannot be relied on. And when you said those things you said them to me as I am part of the church. I still stand by this that you are hurting the faith of others by what you are propagating here within this thread.

OC

[Arthur Durnan]

In our books, Heaven will be precisely as described by the Holy Spirit thru John the Revelator in Revelation Chapters 21 & 22. If it's good enuf for a Billy Graham & son, Franklin, it's probably well good enuf for this particular observer. I know of no reason to doubt the Savior's striking words on this eternal destiny - Jesus IS the Ascended and Glorified Christ of Revlation Chapter One - or to think that God didn't mean what He declared to be so. As I peruse Holy Writ, I see a literal rapture (Greek, harpazo, a snatching away suddenly); a literal New Jerusalem coming down from heaven over planet earth; a World King, David's Greater Son, Jesus Christ, sitting on King David's throne in Jerualem & reigning supreme on a worldwide basis as the long-awaited just and benevolent Ruler. I see heaven as literal as New York City -not LIKE NYC! - but literal as such. New Yorkers, if I offend, I apologize because your Big Apple is, well, The Big Apple. But I do earnestly believe....

Heaven is a WONDERFUL place,

Filled with glory and grace;

I want to see my Savior's face,

Heaven is a WONDERFUL....

Heaven is a GLORIOUS....

Heaven is a WONDERFUL place!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Floatingaxe]

I know Jesus is preparing a place for me to live--a physical reality in heaven. He said so, and I believe it.

Jesus did say he was going to prepare a place for us. He did tell us that he is creating this city in Heaven. What most people fail to realize is that this city does not stay in heaven. This city descends to Earth. We inhabit this city for eternity on the New Earth. "Heaven" is the place believers live until Jesus second coming to the Earth. After the Second advent of Christ, our home is again earth. We live for eternity on "New Earth," not "heaven."

Yessiree!

[Floatingaxe]

Why have you not once answered me regarding the subject of John's statement in Rev. 1:1, that all the things he saw were given as signs?

I see nothing about all being signs here:

Revelation 1:1

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw

[Ovedya]

Hazard,

I will not entertain a discussion in which my statements are twisted into a straw man and then attacked.

Please be so kind as to brush up on your fallacies: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

LOL. If you consider the 42 arguments they consider fallacious on that site, it is virtually impossible to say anything at all without being in violation of at least one of them.

I disagree.

Now which of those fallacies did I just violate?

[Ovedya]

According to the Word of God, Heaven's measurements, taken by an angel, are 12,000 stadia, which is about 1400 miles long, and wide AND HIGH! Given in man's terminology of measurement, we must assume it is a literal place. God can say nothing else to convince us, could He? He is good at being plain when He wants to be!

Why have you not once answered me regarding the subject of John's statement in Rev. 1:1, that all the things he saw were given as signs?

Yes they were signs but not without interpretation as the angel of the Lord made known the visions and interpretations to John as the angel of the Lord showed him these things or else he could not have written them down and we wouldn't be in this thread talking about them right now. Your interpretation is what I am questioning.

OC

Where is the interpretation of the overcomers being pillars in the temple? It's not there, so you would have to interpret the meaning of "pillar" in order to derive the real meaning and intention behind the verse.

[Ovedya]

John 14:2 is incorrectly translated as "mansions." Please read my posting above regarding this!

The Father's house is His household, it is His family, composed of all the redeemed, regenerated, blood-washed, spirit regenerated believers. These believers are each individually the abodes indwelt by the Father, Son and Spirit - the Triune God (v. 23). The Lord's "going to prepare a place" refers directly to His death and resurrection - which is the subject of His discourse!

The "mansions" interpretation has done nothing for Christians over the centuries but cater to the vain and fleshly imaginings of the mind.

How wonderful it will be in eternity for us to live in mansions of splendor, eat feasts of rich and delectible foods, play our favorite games and engage in our favorite earthly pasttime activities, for thousands of years! (???)

Feh.

What about Jesus?

_______________________________________________

It is most ridiculous to argue that the saints are the mansions that Jesus spoke of.

Let's read John 14:1-3 in the manner you speak of:

"In my Fathers house [the Father Himself] are many mansions [saints]: if it were not so, I would have told you [mansions]. I go to prepare a place [saints] for you [mansions], I will come again, and recieve you [mansions] unto myself; that where I am, there ye [mansions] may be also."

Does this make any sense at all? Cretainly not.

I agree with you it "Certainly does not make any sense and poor interpretation at that.

OC

Great. You just go ahead and join yourself with those who would twist my words into an argument that does not exist!

How noble of you.

[Ovedya]

poohey and double poohey,

I have an earthly tabernacle now wherein the spirit of God resides in my earthen vessel of clay my body and I abide in Him and He in me on this earth. But my earthly tabernacle will perish at my death and I shall take up my new residence in the heavenly tabernacle the New Jerusalem where I have a permenant place prepared for me. Your teachings only tears away at one's faith and does nothing to build up believers. I don't agree with your assessments.

The textus receptus is the only correct translation in which you and I do not have a copy of that being the case I will stick to the fact that you are implying that I cannot rely on the word nor interpret it because it is not properly translated and is only doing harm to us poor believers who can't understand the word of God. As I have said you are only hurting the faith of others in holding to this flawed intelluctual teaching of yours. I do not wish to argue with you but you are way out there on this one.

OC

I have implied nothing about your understanding or your ability to interpret the Word. Why do you feel compelled to draw conclusions as to what my "implications" are? John 14 is abundantly clear to any reader who has an ear to hear what the Lord has to say. Have you nothing to say regarding the author's point other than "phoohey"?

Yes I did have something to say in this regards and I said it back it post # 52 I draw my conclusions from the things you have so stated within this thread as a whole. My phoohey is not to the author which is the Holy Spirit but to your interpretation of what was written because basically whether you realize it or not you are implying that Jesus lied to us and we don't really have a dwelling place as you are teaching that we are the mansion ourselves and that the Holy City New Jerusalem is a figment of our imagination that is doing the church grave harm as you stated in your previous post and that we are so carnal that we think of everything in a worldly manner eating phesant every night and playing with our X-boxes as I stated this previously. Well you only imply the word is destructive to us and cannot be relied on. And when you said those things you said them to me as I am part of the church. I still stand by this that you are hurting the faith of others by what you are propagating here within this thread.

OC

Really? Well now you're just mixing your own statements with mine. I never wrote anythin about X-boxes. I never wrote anything about you, or anyone else in this thread acting carnally.

Tell me how it harms or stumbles the faith of another believer to refute an erroneous interpretation that has persisted in the church for hundreds of years? Perhaps Martin Luther stumbled the faith of many, but he also released many saints into the freedom of Christ, away from false religion!

Sorry I "stepped on" your mansion, sister....

[Ovedya]

Why have you not once answered me regarding the subject of John's statement in Rev. 1:1, that all the things he saw were given as signs?

I see nothing about all being signs here:

Revelation 1:1

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw

[Metropolitan]

I think the truth is somewhere in between the extremes....The spiritual world and the literal interpretation cannot be absolute in their own ways...One cannot do without the other....It will be a little pre-posterous to assume that everything mentioned in the Book of Revelations is as literal as it can be, but then one cannot see all of them as a 'sign' of things to come...When we die we surely go to a place....Assuming that place to be Heaven, which at the moment we dont where it is, but it surely exists, as that is what the first verse of the Bible says in Gen 1:1...This Heaven could be anywhere in space hidden from us, or maybe another galaxy(dont have scripture to quote)...But if Stephen did see it from earth..

Act 7:55 'But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,'

Act 7:56 'And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.'

Both these verses indicates that Stephen actually saw Heaven from earth as he looked "up"...which to an extent means that Heaven is somewhere above...and 'standing' another physical aspect to heaven?

To all me this is fine..But there was another question in my mind, which I cudnt run away from?? What was the need for the "New Earth" ???? Why wudnt we just abide with Jesus in this present Heaven?

One school of thought says...That earth is the realm where God's glory has been challenged and resisted , it is therefore also the stage on which his glory will be most graphically demonstrated.By reclaiming , restoring , renewing and resurecting Earth and empowering a regenrated mankind to reign over it, God will accomplish his purpose of bringing glory to himself--Alcorn

Hmm....So far so good...At this stage I wud like to believe that we all will be heading to the intermediate Heaven after the judgement of faith..So it is not your works but your faith that decided where u r heading to(heaven or hell)....The final judgment of works will be at the end of the old earth(after the millenium??) and before the beginning of the New Earth

Ref for above Eph 2:8,9 Tit 3:5 Rom 14: 10-12 2 1 Cor 3:13-14 2Tim 2:12 Rev 2: 26-28 and 3:21Cor 5:10

Whether it is a physical place or not, whether we shall have glorified bodies or not,, we shall surely come to know... But what is more imp is that we all hold on to our faith in Christs atoning sacrifice for us...As that is what is going to save us from the sins we committed..and that is what is going to decide where you are headed to!