John 14 and the New Jerusalem

[Floatingaxe]

Why have you not once answered me regarding the subject of John's statement in Rev. 1:1, that all the things he saw were given as signs?

I see nothing about all being signs here:

Revelation 1:1

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw

[Openly Curious]

Sorry I "stepped on" your mansion, sister....

As you should be sorry for it. But I don't see how you can be sincere when you don't believe I have one to step on. Because you have said that it is we ourselves that will be the literal mansions instead of a dwelling place in the Father's house when we get over there. So what you are saying is that you are sorry for stepping on my heart. Well it want be the first, will it?

I just have to take comfort in the words of my Lord and Saviour who only spoke truth and no lies that a place has been prepared for me. And there was no so called "signs" in John 14 that had deeper spiritual significance to it.

Jesus spoke truth and I choose to believe it. As Jesus was with the Father from the very beginning so He ought to know what was there when He spoke those words of the Father to us so that we would have comfort of heart knowing He is coming back to recieve us unto Himself.

But some can't leave well enough alone but would even take the comfort our blessed Lord gave us away from believers and try to stomp it out of our hearts as I see you are doing. But I don't think your footprint reached my mansion at all brother......My heart maybe but not my mansion. Where there is a literal street of gold that is just the sidewalk leading up to my mansion and my door knocker on my door is going to be worth more than all this world's wealth.

For godliness with contentment is Great gain.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

It is just like the enemy to come and steal these things from believers stepping on the faith and heart of so many who have and have had their faith over there on the other side and not here below.

For the thief cometh not but for to steal, kill and destroy. So step away brother....but don't act like your sorry about it. Post # 52 explains the X-boxes as it was a direct reply regarding your own comments and thinking not mine. Hope others will go back and read Post # 52 to understand the things I said.

OC

[Ovedya]

Why have you not once answered me regarding the subject of John's statement in Rev. 1:1, that all the things he saw were given as signs?

I see nothing about all being signs here:

Revelation 1:1

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw

[Ovedya]

As you should be sorry for it. But I don't see how you can be sincere when you don't believe I have one to step on. Because you have said that it is we ourselves that will be the literal mansions instead of a dwelling place in the Father's house when we get over there. So what you are saying is that you are sorry for stepping on my heart. Well it want be the first, will it?

No. Not at all. What I am saying is that many Christians have held so tightly to their concepts of what "heaven" will be like, they don't stop to consider the fact that many of the interpretations are completely self-centered. That concept becomes what those believers hope in, rather than what the Bible tells us our eternal hope truly is. Often when you challenge a popular concept people feel like you're taking away something that's very dear to them. While that is very unfortunate, the truth must nevertheless reign supreme.

You take umbrage at my comments, and even attribute them to the devil in your response, but the ones you should really be upset with are those that have filled your heart with the false hope of a glorious mansion in the clouds, filled with all the elements that man has considered precious and costly. You should be angry with preachers who fill their congregations with the false hope of an eternity filled with earthly pleasures and enjoyments, when clearly God's word tells us to flee such things with haste!

Many believers should consider the words of this hymn more carefully, and consider that "at any cost..." may sometimes be that of the false hope placed in man-made doctrine:

"My goal is God Himself - not joy, nor peace

Nor even blessing, but Himself, My God.

'Tis His to lead me there, not mine, but His -

"At any cost, dear Lord, by any road!"

[Ovedya]

Before I respond to this post, I want to post Revelation 1:1 from the King James Version of the Bible:

THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." KJV

Now, let's compare this with whatever translation you posted verse 1 from.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show to his slaves the things which must quickly take place; and he made it known by signs, sending it by his angel to his slave John.

The reason I wanted to make this comparison is because you are making the argument that it is given as a "signs," yet it never makes that statement in the King James Version of the Bible. Right off the bat, I would take exception to this entire argument because your translation is faulty, adding to the Word of God, and distorting it.

That would be only if you are dependent entirely upon the King James Version for your translation. The word "semaino" appears in the Greek, although it's commonly translated as "signified it." It owuld content that the meaning is more associated with those things that John saw, rather than the angel being that which signified the revelation. In any case, no serious student of the Bible would take Revelation as a whole entirely literally. The word "apokalupsis" itself carries with it the implication of things being made known through signs.

Next, let's look at the other things you asked. You asked the question about New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband. You wanted to know if that means Christ marries a city? I would answer yes. You can look at this in one of two ways. Either the city itself is the bride of Christ, and the church makes up the guests at the wedding, or the bride is the church itself which is dwelling in the city.

Here you are providing an interpretation of something which you clearly imply is a sign itself. However, if the text of Rev. 21 is held as literal, Christ marries a city nowhere in that text does it say that the city itself is inhabited, and nowhere in the text does it state or imply that "the city is the people."

As far as the scripture you gave from Galatians 4, it is not referring to New Jerusalem. It is making a comparison of two cities, Sinai, and Jerusalem. It also makes the comparison between Abraham's two sons, the one whose mother is Hagar and is symbolic of a child of bondage, and the one whose mother is Sarah, which is free. There are two literal cities, and there are also two literal mothers, as well as two real children, yet they also are given as an allegory to us.

This proves the point of my question regarding Gal. 4:26, "How can a literal city give birth?

However, the verses says, "the Jerusalem above..." It is not talking about the earthly Jerusalem. Verse 25 is pretty clear about this.

[Openly Curious]

No. Not at all. What I am saying is that many Christians have held so tightly to their concepts of what "heaven" will be like, they don't stop to consider the fact that many of the interpretations are completely self-centered. That concept becomes what those believers hope in, rather than what the Bible tells us our eternal hope truly is. Often when you challenge a popular concept people feel like you're taking away something that's very dear to them. While that is very unfortunate, the truth must nevertheless reign supreme.

OC --quote

A Christian should hold tightly to the concepts of what "heaven" will be like. How do you know what so many other Christians hold unto have you taken any poles on the matter or interviewed people on this or are you just assumming this on your own? If the word says that there is a street of gold I am not be self-centered to think that one day I will walk on it with my own feet. If the word says that the river of life is there and the tree of life I am not self-centered to think I will see this river and partake from the tree of life. I am not being self-centered in embracing the truths regarding my eternal home that is so written in the word of God. I am not being self-centered to think I will not behold the face of my Savour Jesus Christ as He is the light of the city and that I will see the Father also the one who created me I will be with for all eternity. I don't think it is being self-centered at all to "hope" in a glorious future that our Lord has prepared for those that love Him. I look forward to it as my eternal everlasting home and their is nothing wrong with dreaming how it is going to be like when we get over there. It is the precious blood of Christ that I have become an heir to all of what heaven holds for me and the precious blood that has given me a future and an hope of eternal life. My hope is not down here and in worldly things as you suggest. In your interpretation you have taken away everything that the word has said for a fact was true about our future abode and written it off to some "higher spiritual significance" one should get from the so called made up "signs" well that don't cut it with me sorry. The things I have read and learned in the word are very dear unto me as I take great comfort in them and it helps me keep pressing onward and I think the truth will always reign supreme even if others try to snatch it away from our hearts along the way.

You take umbrage at my comments, and even attribute them to the devil in your response, but the ones you should really be upset with are those that have filled your heart with the false hope of a glorious mansion in the clouds, filled with all the elements that man has considered precious and costly. You should be angry with preachers who fill their congregations with the false hope of an eternity filled with earthly pleasures and enjoyments, when clearly God's word tells us to flee such things with haste!

OC-quote

It is not the Lord who would so stomp on anothers hope of a glorious future with our Lord and Saviour in all of the splendor of His never ending kingdom that shall never be destroyed as it is everlasting. It is the enemy who would like to destroy that hope from my heart and is trying to do a good job of convincing me of it. I shall be upset with whom I will be upset with as you say my heart is filled with a "false hope" of a glorious mansion filled with all the elements that "man" has considered precious and costly. Well that is not what my heart is filled with what "Man" considers precious and costly I could care less about. But what God has said is there I do care about I want to see the gates that are each made of a single solid pearl and it has absolutely nothing to do with what man wants and considers costly. It is my inheritance given to me by God himself as the precious blood of Christ has made my and heir to these eternal things. I didn't build the city God did I just want to be with Him in all of HIs glory. You can judge my heart any way you wish and say I am filled with a false hope and say lies about my future eternal home if you wish but know it is your judgment of me that I am only looking in your words not mine "elements that man has considered precious and costly. God tells us to flee worldly pleasures speaking of sins while we are living here on earth but over there there shall be no worldly pleasures of sin as sin want be there. There is no where in the word of God that says we can't have enjoyments down here on earth either if so provide those scriptures and let's have a look. I am upset with teachers who teach such things as you have within this thread and who would try to mock and scorn one's beliefs by saying they are filled with false hope of an eternal home as your teaching as so done from the start.

Many believers should consider the words of this hymn more carefully, and consider that "at any cost..." may sometimes be that of the false hope placed in man-made doctrine:

"My goal is God Himself - not joy, nor peace

Nor even blessing, but Himself, My God.

'Tis His to lead me there, not mine, but His -

"At any cost, dear Lord, by any road!"

OC-quote

The words of your hymn doesn't change anything with me as if I am with God Himself it shall bring me everlasting joy and peace and all the blessing of heaven that God has layed up in store and prepared for us over there to enjoy for all eternity as what He has prepared over there and told us about in His word is what He is leading me to in this life right now as He has prepared it and not I. The Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him to deny ourselves and that isn't always easy but nevertheless it is the road less traveled the narrow way that many do not choose. And it is anything but a false hope as you so suggest. The only man-made doctrine I have encountered is that which you have shared in this thread in trying to write off the splendor of heaven as that which is worldly and sinful for a believer to believe in and have a hope of one day being with Christ for all eternity there as it is anything but a false hope that one should consider giving up as you portray that hope of a better future "a cost" we should consider giving up. Not so. As you just want me to "give up" don't you?

OC

[Ovedya]

OC --quote

A Christian should hold tightly to the concepts of what "heaven" will be like.

Why, if those concepts are entirely man-made?

How do you know what so many other Christians hold unto have you taken any poles on the matter or interviewed people on this or are you just assumming this on your own?

As I wrote in one of my initial posts in this thread, I am challenging what is a widely held and popular belief in Western theology. One need not take a poll of all Christians to find out what they believe. After all, an alarming number of Christians do not believe in a literal hell! Yet we know that this is entirely false.

If the word says that there is a street of gold I am not be self-centered to think that one day I will walk on it with my own feet. If the word says that the river of life is there and the tree of life I am not self-centered to think I will see this river and partake from the tree of life. I am not being self-centered in embracing the truths regarding my eternal home that is so written in the word of God. I am not being self-centered to think I will not behold the face of my Savour Jesus Christ as He is the light of the city and that I will see the Father also the one who created me I will be with for all eternity. I don't think it is being self-centered at all to "hope" in a glorious future that our Lord has prepared for those that love Him. I look forward to it as my eternal everlasting home and their is nothing wrong with dreaming how it is going to be like when we get over there. It is the precious blood of Christ that I have become an heir to all of what heaven holds for me and the precious blood that has given me a future and an hope of eternal life. My hope is not down here and in worldly things as you suggest. In your interpretation you have taken away everything that the word has said for a fact was true about our future abode and written it off to some "higher spiritual significance" one should get from the so called made up "signs" well that don't cut it with me sorry. The things I have read and learned in the word are very dear unto me as I take great comfort in them and it helps me keep pressing onward and I think the truth will always reign supreme even if others try to snatch it away from our hearts along the way.

I'm sorry that you have minsunderstood what I wrote. Perhaps if you began reading this from the beginning, and then also considered some of the other material I have presented here for your consideration, you would understand more completely what I am trying to say. I have not written that it is self-centered to believe in the tree of life, streets of gold, etc. I have written that the interpretations of "heaven" have been self-centered. They cater to the base desires of man and do not glorify God. For example, I have personally heard sermons from the pulpit describing how one person who loves to play golf will have the opportunity to play on plush hills of green grass in heaven for eternity.

While in the new heavens and the new earth there will certainly be wonders to marvel at, the notion that heaven is a place where we can gaze in wonder at all the material riches and earthly wealth (And esteem them as being of suprassing value), eat rich fine foods prepared by the best angelic cooks, and entertain ourselves with pleasures we have acquired in the fallen world, are at their core base and idolatrous. Western culture has largly ignored or glossed over the profundity of Christ's statements and formed an idol that rivals that of king Nebuchadnezzar.

OC-quote

It is not the Lord who would so stomp on anothers hope of a glorious future with our Lord and Saviour in all of the splendor of His never ending kingdom that shall never be destroyed as it is everlasting. It is the enemy who would like to destroy that hope from my heart and is trying to do a good job of convincing me of it. I shall be upset with whom I will be upset with as you say my heart is filled with a "false hope" of a glorious mansion filled with all the elements that "man" has considered precious and costly. Well that is not what my heart is filled with what "Man" considers precious and costly I could care less about. But what God has said is there I do care about I want to see the gates that are each made of a single solid pearl and it has absolutely nothing to do with what man wants and considers costly. It is my inheritance given to me by God himself as the precious blood of Christ has made my and heir to these eternal things. I didn't build the city God did I just want to be with Him in all of HIs glory. You can judge my heart any way you wish and say I am filled with a false hope and say lies about my future eternal home if you wish but know it is your judgment of me that I am only looking in your words not mine "elements that man has considered precious and costly. God tells us to flee worldly pleasures speaking of sins while we are living here on earth but over there there shall be no worldly pleasures of sin as sin want be there. There is no where in the word of God that says we can't have enjoyments down here on earth either if so provide those scriptures and let's have a look. I am upset with teachers who teach such things as you have within this thread and who would try to mock and scorn one's beliefs by saying they are filled with false hope of an eternal home as your teaching as so done from the start.

Scorn, mockery, belittlement, judgment, and insult; I have done none of these to you, OC. I am addressing a subject here - an issue that should be of great concern to anyone who loves the Lord. And as I wrote previously, if you believe that this is a personal issue to you, then I apologize for stepping on your mansion. I hold no regret or sorrow for questioning a long-standing cultural misinterpretation of the Bible. If you take it personally, then I am sorry. But I am not here to insult you. That is not my intention. If you cannot separate the two subjects, then perhaps this is a thread you should not engage yourself in.

OC-quote

The words of your hymn doesn't change anything with me as if I am with God Himself it shall bring me everlasting joy and peace and all the blessing of heaven that God has layed up in store and prepared for us over there to enjoy for all eternity as what He has prepared over there and told us about in His word is what He is leading me to in this life right now as He has prepared it and not I. The Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him to deny ourselves and that isn't always easy but nevertheless it is the road less traveled the narrow way that many do not choose. And it is anything but a false hope as you so suggest. The only man-made doctrine I have encountered is that which you have shared in this thread in trying to write off the splendor of heaven as that which is worldly and sinful for a believer to believe in and have a hope of one day being with Christ for all eternity there as it is anything but a false hope that one should consider giving up as you portray that hope of a better future "a cost" we should consider giving up. Not so. As you just want me to "give up" don't you?

OC

Again, you misunderstand. Please consider the following article: http://www.wor.org/books/m/Mansheav.htm

[HAZARD]

No matter what anyone says about Heaven Scripture plainly states that HEAVEN IS A CREATED PLACE.

(Gen. 1:1; Isa.42:5: 45:18; Col.1:16-18: Neh.9:6; Ps. 102:25; Prov.8:27).

IT IS LIKE EARTH. (Gen.1:1; Heb.11:8-16). In this last passage it is called a "BETTER COUNTRY" than the earth. Heaven, therefore, is not an invisable nothing or a cloud floating in space where saints sit and ogle God forever.

THERE ARE THREE HEAVENS. Besides the Heaven where God dwells (Gen21:17; 22:11, 15: 2 Cor. 12:1-3; Deut. 26:15; 1 Kings 8:30;38, 43, 49) there are two other spheres called Heaven. Paul speaks of three heavens (2 Cor. 12:1-3) The third Heaven here is called the paradise where God lives. The other two heavens are: the clouds (Gen.1:8; 7:23; 8:2; Job 38:9, 34; Isa. 14:14; Jer.51:16) and the starry space between the Earth and the planet Heaven (Gen. 1:15-20; 22:17; Isa.14:12-14; Ps. 8:3).

HEAVEN IS THE CAPITOL OF THE UNIVERSE, for God has His capital city, the New Jerusalem, His capital building, the Heavenly Temple or Tabernacle, and His throne in the Temple in Heaven. This city is described by John in Rev.21-22. This capital city will continue to be in Heaven until the end of the Millenium and then it will be moved from the planet Heaven to the planet Earth (Rev.21:2, 9-21). Many Scriptures speak of God's throne being in Heaven. (Ps. 103:19; Rev.4:1-2). That God has a real temple in Heaven is clear from Rev.4-5; 11:19; 14:17; 16:17.

GOD OWNS AND RULES FROM THE HEAVENS OF HEAVENS (Gen. 14:19,22; Ps. 11:4; 89:11; Luke 10:21; 11:2). He also ownes the Earth and all things in the universe, but at present this planet is in rebellion against Him. This is why Jesus will be sent from Heaven with the armies of Heaven to sieze this rebellious part of the universe and restore Gods absolute rule on Earth as before the rebellion started (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:1-21; 20:1-10 Zech. 14; Jude 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Joel 3; Matt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46).

THE LOCATION OF HEAVEN IS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE UNIVERSE. (Isa.14:12-14). In Scripture we are told that Lucifer led a rebellion into Heaven into the sides of the North. In Ps.75:6-7 we are told that promotion comes not from the south, east, or west, but from Lord and therefore from the north.

HEAVEN IS INHABITED (! Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Matt.18:10; 22:30; 24:36; Rev. 12:12; 13:6). Armies and hosts of Heaven are mentioned an number of times as seen in these passages and in Dan. 4:35; Luke 2:13; Rev. 19:14. These inhabitants are listed in part as common angels, archangels, seraphim, cherubim and other spirit beings. Heavenly bodies are mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:48-49. Rejocing in Heaven is referred to by the inhabitants in Heaven (Ps. 96:11; 148:1, 4; Isa.44:23; Rev. 12:12). 8. Paul speaks of "the invisible things" in Heaven as being like the visible things on Earth; that is the things in Heaven are just like the things on Earth. (Rom. 1:20). The word "things" is used in many passages in referring to realities in Heaven. (Phil. 2:10; Col 1:16-20; Heb. 8:12; 9:23). We know from Scripture that in Heaven there are Cities (Rev.21), mansions (John 14:1-3), trees, rivers (Rev.22:1-3), fountains of water (Rev. 7:17), food (Ex.16:4; Ps.78:25: 105:40; John 6:31-51: Luke 22:16, 18, 30; Rev. 2:7, 17: 19:1-10; 22:1-3), animals (2 Kings 2:11-12; 6:13-17; Zech. 1:8-11: 6:1-8; Rev. 19:11-14, 21: Rom. 1:20), furniture tongs (Isa.6:6), fire and coals (Isa. 6:6; Rev.8:5) censer and incense (Rev. 8:4-6), smoke (Rev. 8:4; 15:8), musical instruments (Rev. 5:8; 14:1-5; 15:2-4), clothes (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 1:13; 6:9-11), stones (Rev. 2:17), books (Rev. 3:5; 5:1-7; 10:1-11; 20:11-15), Also mentioned in Scripture are, vials or bowls, crowns, thunderings, lightnings, clouds, lamps, a sea of glass, singing, worship, palm trees, temples, silence, so there must also be noise at other times, trumpets, hail, mountains, keys and chains, measuring sticks, olive trees, the ark of the testament, doors, posts, girdles, pearls, diamonds and other precious stones, walls, gates, gold in abundance, streets, fruits, banquets, and many other inumerable things. If the invisible things in the heavenlies are clearly seen by the things on Earth, as Paul taught in Rom. 1:20, then we have a right to believe that there are in Heaven the same kind of things that we have on Earth. We have no right to make an exception of any good thing that God created and intended for man to have before the fall. Several natural men have gone to Heaven and have come back or will later come back. They are Enoch (Gen.5:22; Heb. 11:5), Elijah (2 Kings 2), Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-4), and John (Rev. 4:1). The first two of these men are still in Heaven living a natural life and will come back as the two witnesses of Zech. 4:11-14; Rev. 11:3-13).

Enoch has been in Heaven over 5,142 years and Elijah has been there over 3,500 years and they are still eating, drinking, and enjoying life on the planet Heaven. If we will understand such statements made above as literal, then the doctrin of the Heavenly world will no longer be a mystery.

[Ovedya]

IT IS LIKE EARTH....between the Earth and the planet Heaven

Heaven is a planet?

the New Jerusalem, His capital building, the Heavenly Temple or Tabernacle, and His throne in the Temple in Heaven....

But Revelation 21:22 says there is no temple in the city.

THE LOCATION OF HEAVEN IS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE UNIVERSE.

But in the universe, that is space, there is no north, south, east or west. Isaiah 14:13 does not speak of a mountain in the northern part of hte universe. It speaks of a real mountain here on the earth: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/Ea...cgi?number=T883

[EricH]

Again, you misunderstand. Please consider the following article: http://www.wor.org/books/m/Mansheav.htm

I took a look at the article you recommended. It is a very interesting read. I'm having trouble understanding the real issue. The writer states:

When we die we may, if we are among the saved, go to a beautiful home in Paradise. There is no doubt

Some trustworthy saints have, in their visions, beheld glorious mansions of light in Paradise. We do not doubt their revelations. Our point is not that there are no mansions in Heaven.

So from the above statements, it appears that the author concedes that there is a beautiful home in paradise, and that "mansions" may be a part of that.

The the author says this:

Our point is that we should not be preaching that the goal of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is eternal residence in a mansion in Heaven. The thought of Christ building magnificent houses for us in Paradise has no foundation in the Scriptures, either Old Testament or New Testament.

So, my understanding is that even through the author concedes that we have a

beautiful home in paradise, and that mansions might be a part of that paradise, we should not preach that as a goal.

So here is my understanding of the conclusion the author desires us to arrive at:

"Even though there is a place called paradise that may contain mansions, we should not preach this as a motivation for believing in the gospel."

The author also states that the only way one could arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is preparing a place for us, is by reading John 14:1ff. He states that the real message of that passage is not that Jesus is preparing a place for us, but that it refers to God coming to make His abode with believers. So the abodes being spoken of here are not places, but believers. Is that a fair summary?