A passage that seems unconscionable.

[gypc]

Romans 9:10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad

[Tubal-Cain]

How do we know the difference between God and satan?

You can't be serious?

It is a serious question to those who think good is good only because God says it's good and for no other reason.

When the Midianites injured Gods people, they injured Him.

Did the Midianite infants injure God's people?

I also don't see the problem you have with the Midianites returning later on to harrass the Israelites in Judges.

If Numbers 31 is history then the Midianites were exterminated in the time of Moses. Hence it would be impossible for them to exist at the time of the judges. Anyone who thinks Numbers 31 is history is faced with this contradiction. On the other hand, if, like me, you don't think Numbers 31 is history, you do not have to face the contradiction or the moral questions that arise.

Gods perfect Justice demands that the guilty pay a price with their Blood.

What crime were the Midianite infants guilty of?

You are callng God unjust and demanding that His perfect Justice fit into your preconceived notion of right and wrong.

Actually, I'm saying that God is just and that Numbers 31 should not be taken as history.

So tell me Tubal, How do we distinguish between God and satan? What is the measure of Righteousness that you use to measure Principalities and Powers that you do not understand? Not too mention God who is above all.

What is your ultimate Authority?

Reality. Pain, pleasure, desire fulfillment and desire thwarting are all realities that are external to God and factor into morality. In this case, a just punishment is simply a punishment that is proportional to the crime. Anyone who takes the story as history should ask whether the punishment in Numbers 31 is proportional to the offense of the Midianites.

[Floatingaxe]

Are you born again, Tubal?

It is a serious question to those who think good is good only because God says it's good and for no other reason.

What other reason should we rely on in order to know what is good, pray tell? God IS GOOD. He IS GOODNESS!

Regarding the infants: They were representative of sin, a mixing of race, a tainting, and they were not part of God's plan for Israel.

[Arthur Durnan]

One has to smile a bit at those who would insist on re-making the One True Creator-God into an Indian-rubber-type god of their own devious construction. Their God cannot budge, bend or initiate proceedings! The One True God threw oceans over Alps and Andes, annihilated the mighty Pharaonic Armies of Imperial Egypt, slaughtered His enemies with the Word of His power and one day, yet to come, will hurl 100-lb hailstones upon the capital cities of a derelict world! The WORST is yet to come! Just make sure you have found the "Hiding-Place"! Hint: it's a PERSON! Check out Revelation before you retire tonight - and you won't retire! The Creator-God has ATTRIBUTES & CHARACTERISTICS just as His creatures have such - like Father, like son in many instances, one might aver - peace, love, holiness, justice, wrath, et al. For one surety, He is NOT essentially the product of our own imaginations! Everything He is, does, and profoundly appreciates is contained in a publication which may indeed unfortunately be gathering dust on one's bookshelf! Leapin' Lizards, you mean....the....the....O, NO....NOT the Holy Bible!! It's the Book which remains on the battlefields of life to preach the funerals of those who oppose it! Donchajustluvit? AMEN!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[TomPJr]

I understand what you guys are saying. I understand that prior to Christ, we lived under the law, not grace. I also understand that there are lots other violent passages in the Old Testament, but this one is above and beyond most of the others. I probably should have explained better my problem with it. Killing in a act of war is just something that happens during times of war. In the Old Testament times, things like stoning a sinner was not considered sinful or evil either (if the punishment was stoning). However, raping little virgin girls seems hard to reconcile. For me at least, it just seems kind of hard to understand why God would want the children of sinners raped. Do you kind of get what I mean?

where did it say anything about raping little girls? I think you are making assumptions.

[TomPJr]

Who said they were raped? Those girls could easily have been taken as servants or when of age, wives. The point was that they had not known men, and therefor were not carrying any child of midianite blood.

Well it says, depending on the translation: "But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."

When taken in historical context, one would take that to mean, you can have the little virgin girls as spoils of war. So the logical conclusion is that they would marry them as soon as they could, and then sleep with them against their will.

It just seems like a passage that requires a lot of rationalization to be palatable to the conscionable individual.

That was better than killing them eh? Those girls might have grown into great women of God. Afterall, they were taken by Godly Men.

The problem with your question is that it is mostly speculative. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomarrow.

someone said that he was a God of vengence, and now a God of forgiveness.... that's not biblical.

He is the same. In short, If you really study, you'll find that God gave much of a grace period to all nations of the past before he enacted his judgement. The people wouldn't change, so he destroyed them. Just as he gave the inhabitants of earth a chance to repent in the time of Noah, and just as we are having a grace period in which to repent now. If we wait too long, probation will close, and we will be destroyed also. That's what the plagues in revelation are all about.

[Tubal-Cain]

Are you born again, Tubal?

Define born again in your own words and I'll answer.

What other reason should we rely on in order to know what is good, pray tell?

An objective morality based on reason and reality. I'm partial to desire utilitarianism.

God IS GOOD. He IS GOODNESS!

Yes, but how do you know he's good without using circular reasoning?

Regarding the infants: They were representative of sin, a mixing of race, a tainting, and they were not part of God's plan for Israel.

It would be unjust for the infants to be killed for the sins of their parents (Ezekiel 18). And if they were not part of God's plans for Israel it does not mean they had to be killed as more humane options would be available to God and Israel.

[Guest]

{{{ Define born again in your own words and I'll answer. }}}

Refuse to consider the original authoritative definition. what kind of logic is this?

"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:4-8)

[Floatingaxe]

Define born again in your own words and I'll answer.

Never mind. I have the answer.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Tubal,

Who is Jesus Christ?

That's the answer to your question of being born again. It's a question.

As for Utilitarianism? You Judge Goodness Objectively by it's usefulness?

I guess you would mark the work of Jesus Christ not Good, because as far as the usefulness of the world was concerned, He was profitless and could be defined as a failure. Seeing as He left no landmarks or great halls inscribed with His name. Neither any Great foundations of swelling human Pride.

Who is Jesus Christ, Tubal?

Peace,

Dave