The State of the Dead

[Metin]

lol he says they arent looking down they were buried face up lol

[Old Timer]

Oops, I'm running out of time...

I'll state my beliefs, and back them up later...

Death is like a unconcious sleep without dreams.

When we die, our bodies return to the ground and the breath of life returns to God.

We cease to exist until the resurection.

(God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul.

body(dust) + Breath = soul------we are a soul, we don't have one)

We do not obtain immortality until Jesus returns and opens the graves of the righteous in the first resurection.

Those who are dead in christ shall arise incorruptable, and those who are alive in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

in short.... the dead are dead, they know nothing, and think nothing. to them, their next concious thought will be when they see Jesus at his coming. They do not notice the time that goes by. even those that died thousands of years ago. That is where the saying comes from "absent from the body, present with the Lord"

If I die today, in Christ, and Jesus doen't return for 500 years, my next conscious thought will be in 500 years when he comes, but it will be instantanious to me.

bye for now,

Tom, I have been fighting this battle on Worthy for a couple of years. I have offered to debate it in the Soapbox Debate.

I have offered explanations to the verses sited by those who object to this view but never receive a reply. In short, you are wasting your effort.

The scriptures clearly state the dead are "asleep" and will awake when Christ returns but Christians have been so indoctrinated they can't see it.

They can't accept the comfort that Paul gave the Thessalonians in 1 Thes. 4:13-18.

Their Blessed Hope is

[EricH]

Please limit your discussion to the issues, not your frustration at not being able to convince others.

The mod team

[Floatingaxe]

The scriptures clearly state the dead are "asleep" and will awake when Christ returns but Christians have been so indoctrinated they can't see it.

They can't accept the comfort that Paul gave the Thessalonians in 1 Thes. 4:13-18.

Their Blessed Hope is

[EricH]

Again,

Please keep this off an us vs them type of argument. Present your view and let it go. It is up to God to convince people of the relative truth or flasehood of a position.

[TomPJr]

Floating axe...

I greatly respect your thoughts...I've been in much agreement on many of your other posts. However, the scripture plainly says that we do not recieve immortality untill Jesus returns....

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mysterie: we shall not all sleepe, but wee shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinckling of an eye, at the last trumpe, (for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortall must put on immortalitie.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

If we go directly to heaven, we would have already put on immortality. Make sense? but we do not recieve it until the resurection.

plus...I truly believe that Heaven will be awsome, but not if I know that my children are still going through hell on earth. What kind of heaven would that be? It's not biblical!

You are correct. We will not put on the imperishable until the last trump. The imperishable is our ternal bodies. That does not mean however, that our sould are not existant and aware in God's presence. Also, Just because you cannot imagine something, does not mean it is not possible. The parable of Lazarus seems to contradict you here.

Eric,

Both of your last posts mention the soul... did you read my full post? If you did, then you should have seen where I showed what a soul is biblically......lets look again.

Before I show you, lets get one thing clear. I was brought up as a child believing the way most Christians do; that when you die, your soul goes off to heaven....when I began to study for myself it became very clear, that we don't have a soul, but we are a soul. This makes all the difference.

Okay friend, here it is....

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, & breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a liuing soule.

(the body-dust + the breath of life life giving force= living soul or living being

in short....dust + breath = soul

Eze 18:20 The soule that sinneth, it shal die...(we don't have an immortal soul, we are a soul and we put on immortality when Jesus returns for us)

when we die the dust returns to the ground, and the breath returns to God, and the soul ceases to exist until God reunites the body & breath of life(or spirit) at the resurection.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (the word here for spirit is translated from the same word as breath, and air in various forms, according to strongs concordance)

The bible equates breath of life with spirit

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in mee, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

(this is only one of many examples)

Jesus did not ascend to heaven while in his tomb...

Joh 20:17 Iesus saith vnto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but goe to my brethren, and say vnto them, I ascend vnto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

I have to go for now,

I look forward to your comments, but please read this whole post and respond to the scriptures which I have quoted. I would like to hear what you have to say about the clear word of the bible.

We need to defend biblical truth, not traditions of men...

with love in Christ,

and peace,

Tom

[kat8585]

Personally, aside from the doctrinal issue here, I can't imagine my relatives being allowed to look down here and see the sorrow and struggle going on down here. It wouldn't be very "heavenly" for them.

Tom, you are right in everything you have said.

[Floatingaxe]

The soul of man is the seat of his will, emotions and intellect. We are creatures of spirit who live in fleshly bodies. This is my understanding and that of the majority of Christians, I do believe. Those who live apart from Christ live soulish lives.

[EricH]

I look forward to your comments, but please read this whole post and respond to the scriptures which I have quoted. I would like to hear what you have to say about the clear word of the bible.

We need to defend biblical truth, not traditions of men...

with love in Christ,

and peace,

Tom

This is the type of thing I am asking folks to refrain from. The implication is that if the person does not agree with you they are not defending biblical truth, and following the traditions of men. It seems like these threads always degenerate into this. Since people cannot abide by what we have asked as mods, I am going to close this