Gay Marriage or Civil Union?

[stevehut]

Homosexuality is no worse then any other sin.

Then perhaps it's also a sin to hate homosexuals? That is the position that many Christians have taken these days.

Steve

[stevehut]

1- Well I, personally have to look at the consequences of certain sins.

2- although gossiping is sinful, it's not having the same effect on the church itself or the community

3- Now, because there is no such a person as a christian homosexual, we have to view them from a different angle.

4- Homosexuality on the other hand, though some say it's no worse than any other sin, has an impact on the whole human race,

5- it is becoming (slowly) the norm and some christian circles are not only turning a blind eye, but condoning the habit, by starting homosexual churches and pastors.

6- empathy shown by some christians, not for some individuals, but for the hard core people who embrace this abnormal filthy lifestyle.

1- The severity of a sin depends on the consequences? Me no tink so.

2- Are you kidding? Gossip can (and does) ruin people's lives and reputations. When it happens to a church leader, it can indeed destroy a church.

3- Why? I thought you just agreed that sin is sin.

4- And so does any other sin, including gossip.

5- Yup. Tragic.

6- You mean just like the rest of us, before we became Christians? Ask not for whom the bell tolls, bro.

Steve

[Smalcald]

But other sins don't have giant political interest groups backing the sin trying to normalize the sin. Other sins don't have whole agenda's trying to enter our school systems at the first ages with a message that two mommies are just fine and dandy. We don't have people saying well adultery is my chosen lifestyle and I feel persecuted as an adulterer because my wife does not like me anymore and society looks down on me.

I think this is where Eric is coming from. The hardcore gay political community is a sick place and is corrosive to society, the hardcore don't even want gay marriage as they see marriage itself as anti-gay, and they have thousands and thousands of partners and revel in this as a normal alternative lifestyle, and biblically we see the results of those sins on society, just look to Sodom and what happened there.

Individually are all homosexuals like that? No, indeed many are just struggling with this sinful disorder and we should reach out to them as pbob is doing.

But when we see radical groups like ACTUP break into St. Patrick

[stevehut]

But when we see radical groups like ACTUP break into St. Patrick

[AnExample]

Pbob i misunderstood but thanks to Silentprayer i now understand

it is all and well , cause i have been lookin for the passage where it states .....lev. 18:22 ..... as i remember reading it but did not rememeber where it was, now i found it and would probably not forget again, thanks to your comments, i now can talk to some gay people i know and also quote the bible, it helps;)

Without the WORD men do what is "right in their own eyes". I am a firm believer in the Bible and trust the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to me. In a conversation with a close friend who is gay - he said I have been this way since I was born - (how do I know)- so i discussed the pertinent scriptures with him and said something like - because of sin all of creation is messed up - mutations, diabetes, blindness, etc. - Only the Lord really knows what we may be going through but He is righteous and will always forgive our sin if we repent and ask. I then said, You know what, I think God is more concerned about what we want to do than what we do. We cannot just deny Him to indulge in the things of the flesh. I aslo reminded him that, "Greater is He that is in you (me) than he that is in the world."

I was able to have this discussion because we had a relationship based on love and respect not my opinions or his or our own thoughts. I always try to use the Bible as my proof and basically say - don't argue with me, I'm just the messenger. What iif the Bible is true? Debating the WORD, in my opinion, only leads to alienation - I try to show them God's word and leave it up- to the Holy Spirit to reveal to them the truth and to convict them ofther sin.

It is true that the Word of God states, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is abomination." Lev. 18:22 KJV My comment is this...if there is to be "no lying down with" then the other comment is also true about engaging in homosexual sex. While it is not specifically written in the word as such, it is an implied truth because if we are instructed to not lie down with, so to speak, there shouldn't be participation in homosexual sex if we are in bed (lying down or standing up) with the same gender. In Romans 1:26,27 Paul speaks to sexual immorality and its origin being in the hearts of man(woman), so much so that God allows them to dishonor their own bodies because of their disbelief. So the issue is addressed more than once. We, as believers, are to hate sin (hate what God hates), but love the sinner. We are to imitate Jesus' behavior. God loves us unconditionally, but we are to rebuke and correct in love and with patiences (sp.?) because it is our testimony (our walk, our behavior) by which the Holy Spirit can use to draw the unbeliever or the believer who is in blatant sin to repentance. We are to bear fruit...love, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. Gal 5:22 at all times because we are crucified with Christ Jesus.

[eric]

Whilst we all have various opinions on the way to tackle the homosexual problem, the fact is, it remains a threat to a world that is spiralling out of control in the areas of plain and simple morality. When school children are learning that having same sex parents is normal, as smalcald, pointed out in the class rooms, and it is been foisted on to our tv as being humorous and something to be condoned I'm not talking about the the young men walking down the street holding hands.

I,m talking about their *hero* parades and the way they flaunt their lifestyle half and sometime fully naked in the streets.

Steve, here's a copy of the way you tabulated my post.

1- The severity of a sin depends on the consequences? Me no tink so.

2- Are you kidding? Gossip can (and does) ruin people's lives and reputations. When it happens to a church leader, it can indeed destroy a church.

3- Why? I thought you just agreed that sin is sin.

4- And so does any other sin, including gossip.

5- Yup. Tragic.

6- You mean just like the rest of us, before we became Christians? Ask not for whom the bell tolls, bro.

Steve

So you are saying that someone in your local church who gossips is going to have an effect on chistianty world wide.? Yes I did say that sin was sin but I also maintain there are different categories of sin. A word in the ear from the right person can stop a gossiper. try going into a big city gay bay and try and have a word in someone's ear and stand the chance of losing one of your own. You cannot lump all unsaved people into the same basket. Heaps of people who don't know the Lord are just plain lost and are open to the gospel and embrace it and accept it. But as long as the homosexal deviants are giong to be nurtured and supported by the media, audio and visual, and ALCU and half your politicians., the church, already becoming apostate, is in danger.

Witnessing to them is a one on one procedure and the ground has to laid out and prepared so the seed will germinate and take root. Homosexuality breeds paedaphilia and it is a threat to society and can't be swept under the carpet. Inviting them to church, will do nothing for them unless the pastor is doing a sermon an sin and salvation, which sadly is going out of fashion

cheers

[stevehut]

1- it remains a threat to a world that is spiralling out of control in the areas of plain and simple morality.

2- So you are saying that someone in your local church who gossips is going to have an effect on chistianty world wide.?

3- Yes I did say that sin was sin but I also maintain there are different categories of sin.

4- You cannot lump all unsaved people into the same basket.

5- Witnessing to them is a one on one procedure and the ground has to laid out and prepared so the seed will germinate and take root.

6- Homosexuality breeds paedaphilia and it is a threat to society

1- Yup.

2- One gossip in a local church, vs. one homosexual man in a local church? Yup. Both people can corrupt the people around them, one at a time. All such corrupting influences begin locally.

3- Mortal vs. venial? Yup, I learned that in Catholic school 40 years ago. Of course, I no longer believe in most of what they taught me.

4- ? Again, I thought you said sin is sin.

5- Yup. That's just the way I evangelize anyone.

6- Um...no. Two very different sins. Gender orientation is one thing, age orientation is another.

Steve

[eric]

Well thanks for the exchange of thoughts, Steve.

[PBob]

Well thanks for the exchange of thoughts, Steve.

THEY (SIN) ALL GET YOU TO THE SAME PLACE... I WAS A RC AND THEY DIVIDE SINS INTO VENIAL AND MORTAL - VENIAL GETS YOU TO PURGATORY (WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE IN) AND MORTAL YOU GO STRAIGHT TO HELL. SINCE CHRIST DIED AND PAID THE ENTIRE PENALTY THERE IS NO NEED FOR PURGATORY - IF WE REPENT AND CONFESS (AGREE WITH GOD) CONCERNING OUR SIN THAN WE ARE FORGIVEN.

NOW, DOES IT TAKE 1 UNCONFESSED LIE OR 2 - STEALING A CANDY BAR OR A PENNY FROM A LITTLE OLD LADY. I CERTAINLY DON'T KNOW ALL THINGS - BUT I AM SURE GOD IS JUST AND WILL DO THE RIGHT THING. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT WE SIT AROUND AND DEBATE WHAT SIN DESERVES WHAT PUNISHMENT DA DA DA .... NOW - IN OUR EYES SOME SINS ARE OBVIOUSLY BIGGER THAN OTHERS - MURDER VS A STRONG TAP ON THE HEAD IN ANGER - SEXUAL SIN ESPECIALLY INVOLVING CHILDREN - SOCIETY WILL CONTINUE TO PUSH THE ENVELOPE AND DO WHAT SEEMS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN EYES - YOU KNOW IF THE WHOLE WORLD VOTED IN FAVOR OF SAYING THAT A LITTLE LIE IS NOT SIN - THAT WOULD NOT CHANGE, IN MY OPINION, GOD'S POSITION OR THE FACT THAT IT IS STILL A LIE.

YES YES YES - OBVIOUSLY SOME SINS CAUSE MORE HARM THAN OTHERS BUT THEY ALL LEAD TO THE SAME PLACE WITHOUT REPENTANCE... DOES GOD FORGIVE ALL OF THEM EQUALLY IF ONE REPENTS AND ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS? i THINK - YES. WE NEED TO BE COGNIZANT OF THIS. DO WE AS CHRISTIANS AND AS A SOCIETY NEED TO REACT DIFFERENTLY TO MURDER VS HATE - YES YES BUT JESUS SAID IF YOU HATE (SOMETHING LIKE THIS) YOU HAVE MURDERED. THE PROBLEM LIES IN HOW SHOULD WE RESPOND BOTH AS AN INDIVIDAUL OR AS A SOCIETY. DEATH PENALTY; 10 YEARS TO LIFE --- I SUGGEST WE SEEK THE LORD CAREFULLY ON THIS ONE. I KNOW PEOPLE WHO WOULD CONDEMN YOU ETERNALLY FOR DIVORCE - OTHERS DON'T WANT THE DEATH PENALTY... GREAT - WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE AND EXPRESS OUR THOUGHTS BUT THE FINAL FINALFINAL JUDGE IS THE LORDS. I SUGGEST WE MOVE CAREFULLY PASSING OUR JUDGEMENT; SEEK THE HOLY SPIRIT AND DO WHAT HE LEADS US TO DO RATHER THAN ASSUMING OUR GREAT INTELLIGENCE IS GREATER THAN HIS.

IS IT VENIAL OF MORTAL BIG OR SMALL HARMFUL OR NOT ....GOOD QUESTIONS

BOTTOM LINE LET US AS HIS FOLLOWERS BE LIGHT AND SALT AND BRING LOVE (AND REPROOF - MY PASTOR JUST CAME IN AND SUGGESTED THIS - i AGEE )RATHER THAN CONDEMNATION TO THOSE IN SIN...

NUF SED

[Smalcald]

The reason homosexuality is a problem is not homosexuality as a sin itself. The reason it is a problem is for the same reason that the normalization of fornication, divorce and living together are major problems for our society at large, it is being normalized and political.

Nobody in general society is saying hey man stealing is a choice it is my lifestyle and I demand rights to steal and I demand to talk about the good parts of stealing to elementary school kids and I think we should be on t.v. to show that thieves are people to and it is okay. That is the problem. No homosexuality is no worse than stealing, but it is no better from the perspective of sin.

Homosexuality will be used as an issue to persecute Christians who refuse to recognize it as normal and healthy, and it is happening today. I can see a time when Churches who refuse to marry homosexuals or refuse to hire them, will be persecuted in some way, this is coming.

So it is not homosexuality the sin, but the politics of homosexuality that is the problem, it is indeed unique today as a problem for Christians. Now how doe we respond that is the question?

We cannot respond with hate, and yet we must maintain our scriptural principles.