Q#2 God doesn't exist by definition

[tdrehfal]

Questioner: It is true for God, because He could use His magic to save everyone. He's omnipotent, he can do that. The police officer and the first guy cannot, so they're excused. God is not excused.

1.

Then God would be obligated to this for EVERYONE, any time something bad happened. Yes, He could save everyone in this way, by making

things disappear the minute someone builds them, or creating force-fields around people every time they're about to do something wrong,

but this would make reality more of virtual prison than the kind of reality we DO have, and that's not omnibenevolent, how would you like

to live in a world like that? That would evil, and not good.

I don't see how having someone protect me all the time could possibly be a bad thing. Why would it be a prison? It wouldn't limit my freedom, it would instead enable me to go on living. The moment of shelter I would get every time I am in danger would be nothing compared to the years of life gained.

Questioner: If God sees everything at once, then everything has already been decided and He can't change it, thus He's not omnipotent.

2.

I don't see how seeing everything all at once means you can't change it. It could just as well be argued that you're present

everywhere and are constantly changing it for the greater good.

In this case you have to add omnipresence to God's characteristics. I agree that defining God as omnimax and omnipresent both in time and space and acting concurrently in every moment of time solves number 2. Congratulations, you broke it ^^ If omnipresence is among the characteristics of the Christian God, then it is on the record that number 2 isn't valid anymore. Good job!

Questioner: Your answer does break the paradox, but it seems very unsatisfying. Killing only the unclean would have been preferable in the eyes of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God.

You didn't answer to this (??) Not a problem, just making sure.

Questioner: That's not the case. I said unnecessary evil. I'm talking about things like forest fires, hurricanes and other things that haven't been caused by humans.

Forest fires, hurricanes, and other disasters could just as well have been allowed by God [all-knowing] for some purpose

that is necessary, but men who are not all knowing cannot discern.

Logical fallacy: appeal to ignorance. You "must" defend properly (if you wish).

We can't live in a virtual prison regardless of how safe it might make you feel. If you want a reality like this, you must allow God to miraculously intervene

for everything. You would never be able to eat at McDonald's, because that's bad for your health. In fact, McDonald's couldn't exist. And no drive through

resturaunts either. Not to many cars, because they create smog in states that have heavy traffic jams and some people get asthma from this. In any case

I don't see how omnibenevolence is equal to 'omni-obligation' to protect everyone from everything that might go wrong. In the case of an all knowing God

an appeal to ignorance is not a logical fallacy. You NEED to BE God to know why a particular disaster was allowed or not. There's nothing wrong with saying

we don't know why God does everything he does. Secondly, the God you describe posesses attributes and no personality. You want to define God as merely

a force of some kind without any personality. You speak of unnecessary evil, but you have no idea what's necessary and what isn't. You also have no idea

how many times God may have protected you from your birth until now. Appeal to ignorance is perfectly valid. Suppose you work for a company that's

about to go bankrupt and due to extremely poor management. A new management team arrives, and the company becomes extremely profitable. They

ask you to do things much differently than the way YOU feel they should be done, but the company is doing much better, so you give them the benefit of

the doubt. Finally, since God is perfectly just, it's appointed for every man to die at some point which as you know we believe is the result of a fallen

sinful condition. We may think the world is cruel and evil, and some of it is, but it could be magnitudes worse than it is. Everyone considers what they

think God should do, but noone wants to think about what they owe God or that God might have feelings or how their actions grieved God. God is not

an omnidoormat for people to step all over. God's attributes all work together. God isn't any one particular attribute but all of them. George Orwell's

1984 describes perfectly a god who simply is 'all powerful' and nothing more.

Edited January 26, 2007 by tdrehfal

[systemstrike_7]

The all to famous "God can't be understood by humans" scapegoat. Well, then why do you believe the bible to be infallible if it is incomplete? If God wrote the bible, then, he contradicts himself according to these paradoxes.

You can't have it both ways...

Wrong.

Who said that God can't be understood by humans?

There's a difference between understanding God and being able to comprehend His ways.

Then help me understand this:

God wanted us to have a choice as to whether or not we will love him. So why didn't he just give us free will, and then dwell with us like he does in the genesis account? He could give us free will, but dwell with us at all times. Then we could love him and worship him, and alot less people would fall away from him. This would save alot of the children he allegedly loves unconditionally and it would make his children ultimately happier to be with him all the time. You would then say, "Well this would eliminate free will". No it wouldn't. We could still deny him if we wanted to, but we wouldn't because he is right there with us. We would be happy, he would be happy, and everything would be great. But instead he sent Satan to earth to torment us and give us the chance to go to a place where we will eternally suffer. Why? Why would an infinitly loving God do this? It doesn't make any sense. And don't say that you have to be a believer to understand. I was once a believer, and I still didn't understand. I just gave some far-fetched explanations and then hid behind them.

I cannot make any sense out of this. It just doesn't work.

[Floatingaxe]

In response to the OP...Charles Stanley said on TV last night that the atheist view is so incredibly stupid because even the devil believes there's a God--he knows for sure, but an atheist refuses even the truth the devil knows!

[Joshua-777]

The all to famous "God can't be understood by humans" scapegoat. Well, then why do you believe the bible to be infallible if it is incomplete? If God wrote the bible, then, he contradicts himself according to these paradoxes.

You can't have it both ways...

Wrong.

Who said that God can't be understood by humans?

There's a difference between understanding God and being able to comprehend His ways.

Then help me understand this:

God wanted us to have a choice as to whether or not we will love him. So why didn't he just give us free will, and then dwell with us like he does in the genesis account? He could give us free will, but dwell with us at all times. Then we could love him and worship him, and alot less people would fall away from him. This would save alot of the children he allegedly loves unconditionally and it would make his children ultimately happier to be with him all the time. You would then say, "Well this would eliminate free will". No it wouldn't. We could still deny him if we wanted to, but we wouldn't because he is right there with us. We would be happy, he would be happy, and everything would be great. But instead he sent Satan to earth to torment us and give us the chance to go to a place where we will eternally suffer. Why? Why would an infinitly loving God do this? It doesn't make any sense. And don't say that you have to be a believer to understand. I was once a believer, and I still didn't understand. I just gave some far-fetched explanations and then hid behind them.

I cannot make any sense out of this. It just doesn't work.

We do have free will, and he does dwell with us, but those who accept him, when adama nd eve fell, God gave a prophecy that a seed shall come out of a woman, refering to Jesus, That was Gods plan from the begining, Ya see, if we saw him which we will when we endure, we would be destroyed because of the sin in our lives, He is too pure and Holy, we needed a way for salvation, he payed the price on the cross, If we knew God only because we saw him, why would we need faith? and he didnt send satan on earth to tourment us, satan I do believe he fell in the garden of eden, because ezk 15 states that he was perfect in the garden of eden, His pride was in his beauty, and he made man fall into sin, giving us the knowledge of sin, which brought fourth death, God dwells with the believers in their hearts through the Holy Spirit, It actualy is simple, and logical, but to an unbelieving mind, the carnal mind looks for excuses, and looks for anything it can against God, we all have a carnal mind, and we all have a choice to listen to it or not. What you aree wanting God to do is somthing God promised to do for those who endure with him until the end. There is no going around that, and I'm not going to question his ways, because he is beyond me, who am I to say to the potter, why have you formed me this way?

ya see, we are all sinners, and God allowed us to be all sinners, so he could have mercy on us all, Jesus died for our sins, to cleans us, and free us, so we may obtain salvation through his name, Now that is the only way, and that is what is set up, This is a stumbling block for many, and life for many, It's all free will, accept one name, That is the way to salvation. Just think how selfish we really are, it's like someone saying heres a million dollors, take it, and us being like, Nope, sorry but I'll find my own way to get a million bucks! Or starving to death, and having someone come up and say hey would you like some food, accept the food and you replying I dont want that, I'll find my own way because you wont give that food to those that dont accept it.

We all have a choice, and we all have free will, we also have balance to do good or evil, Us alone are evil, humanity it's self is evil, because everything good comes from God, if we denie God, then we are not his, we live by our carnal mind. Now, what I see is your reason for unbelief, because you dont want to accept such a precious gift such as salvation, you open yourself to denie it, and you open yourself to confusion, because you CHOSE to denie it, You have free will to chose, Your salvation is in Jesus, there is no other way, and his ways are not your ways, nor my ways, Which is a very good thing. He has a purpose for your life, but you also have a choice, It's like you tearing out your eyes, and a doctor saying hey I can fix that, and help you see again, and you saying no, because I like walking into walls. Hey there is one way one truth and one life, and no way around it.

[systemstrike_7]

In response to the OP...Charles Stanley said on TV last night that the atheist view is so incredibly stupid because even the devil believes there's a God--he knows for sure, but an atheist refuses even the truth the devil knows!

An atheist doesn't believe in the devil. Therefore, satan's opinion doesn't really matter.

[systemstrike_7]

The all to famous "God can't be understood by humans" scapegoat. Well, then why do you believe the bible to be infallible if it is incomplete? If God wrote the bible, then, he contradicts himself according to these paradoxes.

You can't have it both ways...

Wrong.

Who said that God can't be understood by humans?

There's a difference between understanding God and being able to comprehend His ways.

Then help me understand this:

God wanted us to have a choice as to whether or not we will love him. So why didn't he just give us free will, and then dwell with us like he does in the genesis account? He could give us free will, but dwell with us at all times. Then we could love him and worship him, and alot less people would fall away from him. This would save alot of the children he allegedly loves unconditionally and it would make his children ultimately happier to be with him all the time. You would then say, "Well this would eliminate free will". No it wouldn't. We could still deny him if we wanted to, but we wouldn't because he is right there with us. We would be happy, he would be happy, and everything would be great. But instead he sent Satan to earth to torment us and give us the chance to go to a place where we will eternally suffer. Why? Why would an infinitly loving God do this? It doesn't make any sense. And don't say that you have to be a believer to understand. I was once a believer, and I still didn't understand. I just gave some far-fetched explanations and then hid behind them.

I cannot make any sense out of this. It just doesn't work.

We do have free will, and he does dwell with us, but those who accept him, when adama nd eve fell, God gave a prophecy that a seed shall come out of a woman, refering to Jesus, That was Gods plan from the begining, Ya see, if we saw him which we will when we endure, we would be destroyed because of the sin in our lives, He is too pure and Holy, we needed a way for salvation, he payed the price on the cross, If we knew God only because we saw him, why would we need faith? and he didnt send satan on earth to tourment us, satan I do believe he fell in the garden of eden, because ezk 15 states that he was perfect in the garden of eden, His pride was in his beauty, and he made man fall into sin, giving us the knowledge of sin, which brought fourth death, God dwells with the believers in their hearts through the Holy Spirit, It actualy is simple, and logical, but to an unbelieving mind, the carnal mind looks for excuses, and looks for anything it can against God, we all have a carnal mind, and we all have a choice to listen to it or not. What you aree wanting God to do is somthing God promised to do for those who endure with him until the end. There is no going around that, and I'm not going to question his ways, because he is beyond me, who am I to say to the potter, why have you formed me this way?

ya see, we are all sinners, and God allowed us to be all sinners, so he could have mercy on us all, Jesus died for our sins, to cleans us, and free us, so we may obtain salvation through his name, Now that is the only way, and that is what is set up, This is a stumbling block for many, and life for many, It's all free will, accept one name, That is the way to salvation. Just think how selfish we really are, it's like someone saying heres a million dollors, take it, and us being like, Nope, sorry but I'll find my own way to get a million bucks! Or starving to death, and having someone come up and say hey would you like some food, accept the food and you replying I dont want that, I'll find my own way because you wont give that food to those that dont accept it.

We all have a choice, and we all have free will, we also have balance to do good or evil, Us alone are evil, humanity it's self is evil, because everything good comes from God, if we denie God, then we are not his, we live by our carnal mind. Now, what I see is your reason for unbelief, because you dont want to accept such a precious gift such as salvation, you open yourself to denie it, and you open yourself to confusion, because you CHOSE to denie it, You have free will to chose, Your salvation is in Jesus, there is no other way, and his ways are not your ways, nor my ways, Which is a very good thing. He has a purpose for your life, but you also have a choice, It's like you tearing out your eyes, and a doctor saying hey I can fix that, and help you see again, and you saying no, because I like walking into walls. Hey there is one way one truth and one life, and no way around it.

You're completely missing the entire point. God allows people to suffer. God allows evil. Can he not stop it? Can he not eliminate it? Or does he not want to? You keep making excuses as to why God would allow evil, but the simple point is that there is no excuse. God is all-powerful, and infinitly loving, therefore, evil cannot exist. We will dwell with God in heaven and be pure and sinless, so why do we have to go through hell to get there? It seems as though he is merely playing games. I keep hearing people say that God has the right to do whatever he wishes. Well, then quit saying he is infinitly loving.... Then the problem would be solved.

[georgesbluegirl]

Here's some Aquinas for you - I don't think anyone's brought this up, and I've always loved this line of thought. Here goes:

The subject line of the thread is correct. God does not exist.

Why is this not an atheistic statement? Aquinas posited (correct me if I'm wrong on the details and this was expanded by another, but I believe it was Aquinas who did most of this thinking) that all things exist and have an essence. For example, a tree is the same as a bug because both exist. The reason they are different is because the essence of a tree is to be a tree - leafy, with a trunk, growing - while the bug's essence is to be a bug (p.s. interestingly there is a parallel with this in the Buddhist dialectic, but that's not relevant here I guess!).

But what is the essence of God, the force that creates, that defines the essences? God can't be pinned down. The essence of God IS to exist. God doesn't merely exist - God IS existence.

Pretty sweet, right?

[systemstrike_7]

Pretty sweet, yes. But still fails to answer the question.

[georgesbluegirl]

Well, the traditional response is as follows: man chose to fall, and therefore is responsible for the existence of suffering.

However, I'm not sure. I haven't thought about this issue in a while...if God is omniscient, doesn't that mean he created man knowing he/she would fall? Is that the same thing as creating man TO fall?

I think it probably all goes back to free will. There's a whole branch of theology and writing - theodicy - that deals with the coexistence of God and evil.

I'm interested in your thoughts...this is definitely a subject I'm open on.

[tdrehfal]

Well, the traditional response is as follows: man chose to fall, and therefore is responsible for the existence of suffering.

However, I'm not sure. I haven't thought about this issue in a while...if God is omniscient, doesn't that mean he created man knowing he/she would fall? Is that the same thing as creating man TO fall?

I think it probably all goes back to free will. There's a whole branch of theology and writing - theodicy - that deals with the coexistence of God and evil.

I'm interested in your thoughts...this is definitely a subject I'm open on.

I think I would define evil as the absence of God's protection/presence. So God does allow people to suffer.

We should examine this:

1. Is God obligated to prevent everyone's suffering all the time?

2. How much prevention really takes place?

3. A sinful creature is going to have to endure suffering to some extent, there's no escaping it. While in the flesh, there are still consequences

for sins.

4. We're assuming that no good whatsoever can come of suffering.

5. God is not only infinitely loving but also perfectly just. Omnibenevelonce does not negate God's justice.

6. If God is omniscient, and I'm not, which is obviously the case, how am I supposed to determine what evil is 'necessary' and what isn't.

This is a logical fallacy. The finite attempting to judge what only an omniscient being would be able to know.

7. Jesus suffered, and He didn't have to.