I have a question on God's omniscience.

[EricH]

One of the Key tenents of Open theism is something they call the hermeneutic taking the "straight-forward meaning" of the text. An example of this occurs is Genesis 22:12 (One of the key passages for Open Theists):

Then He said, "Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me."

Genesis 22:12 CSB

This statement is made by God after He stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac. Open Theists hold that since God says that only after Abraham offered Isaac, that God knew Abraham feared Him, this implies that God did not know Abraham feared Him before this. Thus God does not know all things.

I must confess that I am in sympathy with Open Theists in their insistance that the straight foreward meaning of the text is the best. Even when it goes agains our own cultural assumptions, or comfort levels. The question is, was the straight forward meaning always the one initended by the author of the text?

Lets test that here in Genesis 22:12

The issue here is did God learn the state of Abraham's heart only after Abraham made the attempt to sacrifice Isaac? Open Theists are correct. The most straigh forward understanding of this text is that God learned something He had not previously known.

1. Open Theist hold that God's knowledge of the future is limited. They however do not hold that His knowledge of the present and the past is limited. In fact, the Open Theists I have read insist on this (Boyd etc.). The aspect of of God's alleged limited knowledge in this passage, in addition to what Abraham would do (sacrifice his son), was the condition of his heart (that he feared God). In other words God not only learned that Abraham would sacrifice his son, He learned that Abraham feared God. The problem with this is that Abrahams heart condition (his fear of God) is not a future element. It is a current condition (the present). According to the straight forward understanding of this passage, God not only did no know if Abraham would sacrifice Isaac, He did not know If Abraham feared him. How are we to reconcile that with these passages:

As for you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands the intention of every thought. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

1 Chronicles 28:9 CSB

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or his stature, because I have rejected him. Man does not see what the LORD sees, for man sees what is visible, but the LORD sees the heart."

1 Samuel 16:7 CSB

Thus, Open Theism's insistence that the straight forward intperpretation is always the best, would end up denying one of their own tenents, that God knows the present perfectly.

2. Open Theists insist that it was this episode that convinced God that Abraham feared Him and could be a trustworthy covenant partner:

However, if Abraham is totally free, and God does not know the future, How could God know that at some point in the future, Abraham would not become undependable.

3. The straight forward interpretation simply does not always work

Consider for example Genesis 3:8-13:

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and they hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. So the LORD God called out to the man and said to him, "Where are you?" And he said, "I heard You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid." Then He asked, "Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree that I had commanded you not to eat from?" Then the man replied, "The woman You gave to be with me-- she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate." So the LORD God asked the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "It was the serpent. He deceived me, and I ate."

Genesis 3:8-13 CSB

A straight forward understading of this text would lead to the following conclusions:

1. That God had some kind of human form as He is reported as walking in the garden

2. That God can be hidden from. He asks the man "where are you?" Why would God ask, if He already knew where Adam was?

3. That God did not know what they had done

4. That God did not know how they became aware that they were naked

As one can see, the straight forward understanding is not always the best. I am indepted to Bruce Ware's, "God's Lesser Glory The Diminished God of Open Theism", for much of the information above

[notself]

I believe the problem is in linear thinking and assuming that God thinks this way. As I see it, we are born and at frequent times in our lives, daily, minute by minute, we make decisions. Before the decision is made all things are possible. God may see all things as possible in the future, but it is only when we decide and take action that one possibility comes into existance. Each decision we make takes us down a path of new possibilities.

For example, I catch a moth in my home and instead of killing it, I let it go. This act of kindness softens my heart and makes it easier for me to be kind to the next creature and as well as being kind to the next person I meet. I chose to be kind. I could have killed the moth and perhaps my heart would have hardened a bit more and I would not see all creatures and creations of God. I chose to be unkind. Until I make the decision, God sees both actions as equally possible.

[shaitiger]

I am a firm believer of predestination and election. I don't think people have that much of a problem with God's omniscience or omnipresence, what people have a problem with is His omnipotence. While God knows everything and is everywhere at once, He is also all powerful and in control of all things(Col. 1:15-17).

Lets set the premise:

1. God can do whatever He wants because He's God(Romans 9:16 & 18)

2. We deserve eternal damnation due to sin(Romans 3:23)

3. Grace = God giving us what we don't deserve which is salvation(Ephesians 2:8)

4. Mercy = God not giving us what we deserve which is eternal damnation(Ephesians 2:4-5)

5. God is a God of purpose when He chooses. The purpose is to demonstrate His power and to be Himself glory(Romans 9:22-23)

6. If God chooses whom to save and whom not to save, why does He still find fault? The answer is who are we to even question His intentions and plan? (Romans 9:19-21)

7. We as finite human beings aren't omnipresent, omniscience, and omnipotent, have no idea who will be saved or not. God has indeed instilled in everyone of us a purpose in our lives which is to glorify Him and demonstrate His power. God will fulfill His purposes in our lives, either as children of God(vessels of mercy) or as vessels of wrath.

8. Because we aren't God, His purpose in believers is to conform us into the image of Christ and spread the gospel so that we can in turn live the life He has purposed for us.

Edited January 12, 2007 by shaitiger

[HAZARD]

Hi everyone,

I know that God knows everything that is going to happen, so he knows who will accept Jesus and who will not. So my question is why does he create people that he knows are going to hell? I have recently been asked this and I realized that it is largely a question I have no answer for.

Thanks in advance,

Keilan

_______________________________________________

Hi Keilan.

The question of the omniscience of God is very much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these passages if we do not believe them. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were untrue. God's plan for man will never fail, thats for sure, but if you read Scripture and believe what is written you will find that God gets to know the things concerning FREE MORAL AGENTS, and their actions, as any other person does (Read Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12l 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27 and 1 Thess. 2:4).

The facts are, God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast universe in all the kingdoms therein. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinate detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and ALL FREE MORAL AGENTS on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they DID NOT COME INTO HIS MIND (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

God DID NOT KNOW BEFOREHAND that men would become so wicked. It repented Him that He had made man! It grieved Him at His heart! (Gen. 6:5-7), that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked He went there Himself to see if it was true according to the report of it which was given to Him (Gen. 18:21). He said, "If I find fifty righteous within the city in verse 26. Why make this statement if He already knew? (Gen. 18:26-32). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). Goid did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God SEARCHES THE HEARTS to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will. the 1,522 "IF'S" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will. Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future. God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

[eric]

Sounds fair enough to me at first read, HAZ. but I will have to give a more serios reading.

To say that God knew that satan wiuld rebel because of his omnicience or that adam would fall for the same reason, is implying that he only made prototypes that could be improved as time went on. It's implying that God wasn't sure of His own accomplishments in creating angels or humans.

Anyway thanks for the in put and I might get back to you when I have studied your post further.

[HAZARD]

Sounds fair enough to me at first read, HAZ. but I will have to give a more serios reading.

To say that God knew that satan wiuld rebel because of his omnicience or that adam would fall for the same reason, is implying that he only made prototypes that could be improved as time went on. It's implying that God wasn't sure of His own accomplishments in creating angels or humans.

Anyway thanks for the in put and I might get back to you when I have studied your post further.

God be with you, always.

Haz.

[notself]

I am a firm believer of predestination and election. I don't think people have that much of a problem with God's omniscience or omnipresence, what people have a problem with is His omnipotence. While God knows everything and is everywhere at once, He is also all powerful and in control of all things(Col. 1:15-17).

Lets set the premise:

1. God can do whatever He wants because He's God(Romans 9:16 & 18)

2. We deserve eternal damnation due to sin(Romans 3:23)

3. Grace = God giving us what we don't deserve which is salvation(Ephesians 2:8)

4. Mercy = God not giving us what we deserve which is eternal damnation(Ephesians 2:4-5)

5. God is a God of purpose when He chooses. The purpose is to demonstrate His power and to be Himself glory(Romans 9:22-23)

6. If God chooses whom to save and whom not to save, why does He still find fault? The answer is who are we to even question His intentions and plan? (Romans 9:19-21)

7. We as finite human beings aren't omnipresent, omniscience, and omnipotent, have no idea who will be saved or not. God has indeed instilled in everyone of us a purpose in our lives which is to glorify Him and demonstrate His power. God will fulfill His purposes in our lives, either as children of God(vessels of mercy) or as vessels of wrath.

8. Because we aren't God, His purpose in believers is to conform us into the image of Christ and spread the gospel so that we can in turn live the life He has purposed for us.

And these beliefs bring you peace and happiness?

[AnotherTraveler]

HAZARD

I think I blew a few brain cells trying to follow your post, but it was certainly well thought out.

I have no idea at this point about your conclusions (though I am of the opinion that you are wrong , because I am too confused to decide that you are right )

This entire thread is a real chewer, and I suspect I will be chewing on this for a while. Thank you for your posts all.

[Zceiv]

I am a firm believer of predestination and election. I don't think people have that much of a problem with God's omniscience or omnipresence, what people have a problem with is His omnipotence. While God knows everything and is everywhere at once, He is also all powerful and in control of all things(Col. 1:15-17).

Lets set the premise:

1. God can do whatever He wants because He's God(Romans 9:16 & 18)

2. We deserve eternal damnation due to sin(Romans 3:23)

3. Grace = God giving us what we don't deserve which is salvation(Ephesians 2:8)

4. Mercy = God not giving us what we deserve which is eternal damnation(Ephesians 2:4-5)

5. God is a God of purpose when He chooses. The purpose is to demonstrate His power and to be Himself glory(Romans 9:22-23)

6. If God chooses whom to save and whom not to save, why does He still find fault? The answer is who are we to even question His intentions and plan? (Romans 9:19-21)

7. We as finite human beings aren't omnipresent, omniscience, and omnipotent, have no idea who will be saved or not. God has indeed instilled in everyone of us a purpose in our lives which is to glorify Him and demonstrate His power. God will fulfill His purposes in our lives, either as children of God(vessels of mercy) or as vessels of wrath.

8. Because we aren't God, His purpose in believers is to conform us into the image of Christ and spread the gospel so that we can in turn live the life He has purposed for us.

And these beliefs bring you peace and happiness?

does it matter if were "happy"?

[Floatingaxe]

Amen! God wants our obedience! Happiness is the result of that.