Ephesians 2:8-10

[endure4salvation]

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.  For we are His craftsmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Let's see what we have here.

1. Grace

2. Faith

3. Good works

As you can clearly see, works have absolutely nothing to do with gaining or maintaining salvation...PERIOD!

Works are NOTHING more than evidence of a REAL SAVING FAITH. Abraham was justified by faith, which was evident to others because of his works...but this has nothing to do with gaining or earning or maintaining salvation.

Please note that we are justified by our faith.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

[Guest LadyC]

or in the words of rich mullins.....

It's about as useless as

A screen door on a submarine

Faith without works baby

It just ain't happenin'

One is your left hand

One is your right

It'll take two strong arms

To hold on tight

Some folks cut off their nose

Just to spite their face

I think you need some works to show

For your alleged faith

Well there's a difference you know

B'tweeen having faith

And playing make believe

One will make you grow

The other one just make you sleep

Talk about it

But I really think you oughtta

Take a leap off of the ship

Before you claim to walk on water

Faith without works

Is like a song you can't sing

It's about as useless as

A screen door on a submarine

[BlindSeeker]

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

[Guest charlie]

So does this mean that if you were once a "true" believer with all your heart, mind, and soul, that if you later start to unbelieve, you're still saved? What about the book of James? It concentrates on works. You know, Luther called the book of James a book of straw and wanted it excluded from the New Testament all together. Is belief all it takes? Even Satan and his minions believe.

I think you gotta have both. If you go thru the NT and write down everything Jesus said it seems to revolve around works. He talked about works more than He talked about faith.

[Guest LadyC]

charlie,

god does not just take away our gift of salvation. however, i do believe we can choose to throw it away. i've known several people in my life who chose to do just that. they know the truth, they embraced the truth, and then they got seduced by worldliness and rejected the truth. and if you ask them why, they are all very honest about it... they simply enjoy living sinful lives and are willing to pay the penalty of death. they do not want anything more to do with God. this is not my interpretation of their feelings, it is exactly what they have told me.

god gives us all free will. if we make a choice to throw away our salvation, it's a choice of will, and god honors that. he doesn't force anyone to come to christ, nor does he force anyone to stay in christ. the bible is very clear that god will eventually turn one over to their reprobate mind, those who knew the truth and rejected it.

[Guest charlie]

Lady C, I agree that we can throw away the gift that Jesus Christ gave us. In my old church they said once one was saved one was always saved and works didn't factor into the equation. If one was saved then departed from the faith they'd say, "Well, that person was never really saved to begin with". I think that's balony myself. Satan doesn't stop working on a person because he or she gets "saved". As far as the "works" thing goes I'd say that people who perform good works because they're afraid of going to hell, probably do have reason to fear such a fate. But you know, some people are just good. They love nothing better than to help someone else. These people, imo, are performing the works that Jesus wanted us to perform, works, from the heart.

[endure4salvation]

I fully agree that faith without works is dead.

While works have nothing to do with gaining or maintaing salvation, they do have everything to do with spiritual growth.

Take my relationship with my wife, for example. There may be a handful of times that I have not opened a door in the past year-and-a-half. I do it for her because I love her, not because I am scared that she is going to leave me if I don't. That wouldn't be love!

I do my best to be a servant to her in many different ways. I cook a lot of the meals, I clean her car, I pray with her (and for her) every morning and evening with my arms wrapped around her. I tell her I love her many times a day.

Do I do this because I am scared that she is going to commit adultery or leave me?

No, I do it because I love her, and I want to show her how important she is to me. She is a beautiful and tenderhearted girl who really loves the Lord and I am so blessed to know her at all, let alone be married to her!

So my point is not to exalt myself or my own efforts, but to emphasize that a real love is the motivating factor in my service to her.

It is the same way with God--if someone is never doing anything for Him (and anything could be as simple as getting a glass of water for a child according to Jesus), then how can the love of Christ be in them?

What I am getting at is where there are no works, is there a genuine appreciation and love for God and the great lengths that He went to in order to prove His love to us? I am not trying to judge others here, just asking a question.

[endure4salvation]

charlie,

god does not just take away our gift of salvation. however, i do believe we can choose to throw it away.

This is EXACTLY what point I am trying to make. God will never force us to stay if we want to go (prodigal son). Ephesians 2:8 tells us that God provides the grace, and we provide the faith.

If faith is what justifies us, and we choose to throw it away, how can we be justified any longer?

Romans 3:28

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the Law.

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith.

Galatians 2:15-16

We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.  So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the Law, because by observing the Law no one will be justified.

If we are justified by faith, can one loose their faith in Christ and are no longer justified? We have a lot of Biblical examples of such.

1 Timothy 1:5-6

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.  Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.

1 Timothy 1:18-19

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience.  Some have shipwrecked their faith.

1 Timothy 5:11-15

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list.  For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.  Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.  Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house.  And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.  So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.  Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.  Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many greifs.

1 Timothy 6:20-21

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care.  Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered away from the faith.  Grace be with you.

2 Timothy 2:16-18

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.  Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth.  They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

2 Timothy 3:8

For of this sort are they, which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds; reprobate concerning the faith.

I don't want to turn this thread into yet another eternal security thread, but I do want to show that there are Biblical examples of people who had a sincere faith and wandered away, while others shipwrecked their faith...etc....

If our means of justification is no longer present, then we are no longer justified, right?

[sagz4Christ]

I don't want to turn this thread into yet another eternal security thread, but I do want to show that there are Biblical examples of people who had a sincere faith and wandered away, while others shipwrecked their faith...etc....

I have done well to stay away from this and other similar topics, though I have desperately wanted to post.

I can't let this one pass though. Notice, I am not questioning your reasoning here, I am just asking a question that seems logical enough to ask, though you must remember my theological education.....

It seems to me that being shipwreked is a pretty bad thing. It would be hard to be and effective witness to Christ in such a condition. That word does bring up a reminder of something that happened to Paul on his way to Rome.

He was shipwreked. He didn't die. While admittedly, he could have probably done without that boat breaking apart, was he ever in danger of death? probably from the icy waters, but God had his back, no? So how does shipwreking your faith equate to losing your salvation?