Binding and loosing

[Botz]

Exactly KD.

Many Believers take these verses out of context, and try to attribute some spurious demon destroying power in the words 'loosing and binding.' Everything here stems from a context...a hebrew context. Here 'to loose' means 'to permit,' and 'to bind' means 'to forbid.'...the translators could have done a better job, and some christian teachers could have dug a little deeper.

A prime example of this in action can be found in...

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If anyone is familiar with 'Fiddler on the roof,' they will understand what an impact and a final authority the beloved Rabbi has in a Jewish community...if a problem arises and the biblical answer seems ambiguous...then they will ask for a ruling from the Rabbi, and he will forbid some things and permit others.

When Jesus spoke these words in Matthew 16:19 and again in Matthew 18:18...there was a long historical context of traditional rabbinic teaching that preceded his words, which those that were listening to him would have understood quite clearly.

That there might come times when we need to speak out against demonic powers in the name and authority of Jesus goes without saying...and if using the terms bind or loose works, thats great...but as KD states, you can't fit these verses into that framework.

[Leonard]

Speaking as an academic, the technically 'correct' understanding of these verses is probably related to the fact that Jesus was borrowing terms from Synagoguical tradition. By the time of Christ, there were synagogues all over the world, operating in very different cultures. Some things commonly done in Palestine, might have been utterly scandalous say in parts of Gaul, and vice versa. Therefore, early on the Jewish authorities had given broad powers to local synagogues to 'bend the rules' if you will, so they could live more peacefully within the cultures in which they found themselves. They could 'bind' convenient rules of order and worship in their areas, or 'loose' rules which might have been required in Israel.

So it appears that Jesus is giving broad authority to local churches with the same intention.

However from a Pastoral perspective, I have seen these verses understood as pertaining to the authority of the believer in prayer, and watched peoples' faith soar to new heights, and God respond greatly, to their 'novel' interpretation!

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ!

[Smalcald]

Certainly we have direct and total access to Christ through faith FloatingAX I totally agree. The Gospel is for us, not reserved somehow for the pastorate then to be handed down, I agree.

However when we look at these particular versus they are referring to the power of the Church to loose or to bind, particularly the one in which Christ tells Peter that He will establish His Church and establish the office of the Key's.

It is pretty direct.

What do you believe this verse means?

17 Jesus answered and said to him,

[Leonard]

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ!

This guy just quoted Scripture, Floating Axe; and you MANIFESTED all over him! Wow! Do you prefer the traditions of man to quoting Scripture, or what????

[yomotalking]

Where is that "retaining verse?"

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ!

This guy just quoted Scripture, Floating Axe; and you MANIFESTED all over him! Wow! Do you prefer the traditions of man to quoting Scripture, or what????

No, I follow after the teachings of Jesus Christ. So you think I don't see that there was quoted scripture presented? I refute closed-heart rejections of the full truth of Jesus Christ and why He came, and that He passed on ALL His authority to us, His Church. This mind-set serves no one but the mistaken mind of the one who teaches it. It certainly doesn't serve Jesus...it cuts Him off at the knees.

We have the authority to enter the throne room in Heaven binding and loosing the will of God in all matters.

[Kansasdad]

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ!

Pretty strong their floatingaxe, but you have just asked Jesus to rebuke his own words. You might think about why you have had such a strong reaction. Think about it, do you really think that all members of the Church can forgive sins and then their sins will be forgiven by God. To take your interpretation, that is the natural conclusion you would have to reach. That is what Jesus just told his Apostles. He gave them this authority. These are not my words, these are the words of Jesus Christ. So tell me do you believe that everything given to the Apostles is also given to us. Then if that is true and you confess your sins to me and I say, I am sorry but you were not sincere and your sins are not forgiven, would you accept that as being truth. According to your interpretation Jesus gave me that authority, (and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained) No, This was Authority given to the Apostles as leaders of His Church. This is the authority given to his Church, not each individual of the Church.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ!

Pretty strong their floatingaxe, but you have just asked Jesus to rebuke his own words. You might think about why you have had such a strong reaction. Think about it, do you really think that all members of the Church can forgive sins and then their sins will be forgiven by God. To take your interpretation. that is the natural conclusion you would have to reach. That is what Jesus just told his Apostles. He gave them this authority. These are not my words, these are the words of Jesus Christ. So tell me do you believe that everything given to the Apostles is also given to us. Then if that is true and you confess your sins to me and I say, I am sorry but you were not sincere and your sins are not forgiven, would you accept that as being truth. According to your interpretation Jesus gave me that authority, (and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained) No, This was Authority given to the Apostles as leaders of His Church. This is the authority given to his Church, not each individual of the Church.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Only Jesus can forgive sins. The Catholic church has extrapolated the sin-forgiving thing. If someone sinned against me and asked my forgiveness, I would forgive them, and they are responsible to ask God's forgiveness for themselves. HOWEVER I can go and ask God to forgive them in Jesus name and not to hold it against them...appealing to the mercy of God. I cannot retain a person's sin against me, as it is unforgiveness, isn't it?

[Kansasdad]

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ!

Pretty strong their floatingaxe, but you have just asked Jesus to rebuke his own words. You might think about why you have had such a strong reaction. Think about it, do you really think that all members of the Church can forgive sins and then their sins will be forgiven by God. To take your interpretation. that is the natural conclusion you would have to reach. That is what Jesus just told his Apostles. He gave them this authority. These are not my words, these are the words of Jesus Christ. So tell me do you believe that everything given to the Apostles is also given to us. Then if that is true and you confess your sins to me and I say, I am sorry but you were not sincere and your sins are not forgiven, would you accept that as being truth. According to your interpretation Jesus gave me that authority, (and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained) No, This was Authority given to the Apostles as leaders of His Church. This is the authority given to his Church, not each individual of the Church.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Only Jesus can forgive sins. The Catholic church has extrapolated the sin-forgiving thing.

Then please explain this verse. You are just ignoring it. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Do you deny that Jesus said this to his Apostles?