firehill Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,980 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 Ok...first of all, don't worry.... won;t kill myself. But need to know something about it. When you are saved, or when people say you're saved.... will you go to Heaven when you kill yourself? Dear Thysia, I will only give you my understanding of the sin of suicide using scripture, and hope it gives you an understanding also. Warning, I use more than one sentence to explain my position, and there seems to be an attention deficit among many when reading a post, so I understand if you turn away now SUICIDE First of all, I believe not accepting Christ as your savior is the only sin not forgiven. Israel saw the miracles, heard the living water (the word of God) preached to them, and said that what was preached, and what they saw was of Beelzebub, and they didn't drink, and that was blasphemy. Needless to say they didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah, and will have eternity to regret it. Below we see the history of King Saul's taking of his own life, and these things were given us as examples to show us what God does in our lives also. 1 Samuel chapter 28. Saul is at war with the Philistines and God will not answer his prayer. He seeks a witch at En-dor in verse 7 & 11 to bring up the now deceased Samuel from the dead to answer his questions since God will not. In verse 19 Samuel tells Saul that tomorrow he and his sons will be with him. (In Abraham's bosom.) Samuel was deceased and was in Abraham's bosom described in Luke chapter 16 where he states Saul will join him. In Hebrews 11:32 we see Samuel described as one of the righteous of old, and so we must realize that Saul was also there also. Abraham's bosom was the resting place of the righteous dead, or also known as paradise in the center of the earth until Jesus died and took paradise to heaven. Now if we die as believers our spirit goes immediately to heaven to be with the Lord. The spirits of the unrighteous dead went to lower hell, and still do until the day of judgment. Saul fell on his own sword to kill himself in 1 Chronicles 10:4. Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died. 6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together. Our salvation does not depend on what we do, but What God did and our accepting of the sacrifice He made for us. I've read many responses stating how certain things send us to hell, while others do not. One states that not repenting before we die condemns us, and some say that we can jump out of God's hand. If you haven't guessed, I believe in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgolvach Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 110 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,254 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 This is a very interesting subject to me. I have thought about suicide for a few years now because of a very painful disease (lupas\sjogrens & mixed connective tissue disorder with severe tinnitus)thats eating me alive. I would love to end it because I hate my life but I love my sons too much to do it. Plus I'm chicken. I don't know how much time I have but I have decided to leave it to God. I'm ready to go home. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Butero, Very good thoughtful reply, thanks. The issue of willful sin is important and we certainly don't want to harden our hearts towards God, and willful sin will certainly do this. It's by far best to keep a short account with the Lord because He loves us so and most assuredly wants what's best for us. It's His goodness that draws us to repentance! When it comes to commentaries, first I study the issue for myself as much as I have time and ability to do. Then I check several commentaries that offer different perspectives, often having radically different beliefs. I do this to see if they uncover or mention any information or perspective that I haven't considered or even heard. I especially like to read those who I would tend to disagree with. They challenge my understanding of scripture - a very good thing! I often find that others have information concerning the context (historical, cultural, and literary) that I never knew or noticed. I respect highly those who have spent years studying the scripture and writing about it, even if I disagree very much with their conclusions. Of course they don't carry nearly the weight of the Word of God, but I do prayerfully consider and value what others have written, just like I value and respect you and what you share on this forum. Thanks, Blessings, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 Satan always says, "Throw yourself off the pinnacle of this Temple!" Jesus Christ always says, "I am come that you mai have life, and that more abundantly!" Anyone with an ear to hear, let him/her understand. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 Satan always says, "Throw yourself off the pinnacle of this Temple!" Jesus Christ always says, "I am come that you may have life, and that more abundantly!" Anyone with an ear to hear, let him/her understand. Hello Arthur Durnan, This has helped encourage me more than you know that it has and reminded me of the scripture where it said that Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15) I thank you for taking the time to post this OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartofstone Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 149 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) Dear saints of God, believe what you will, but I have no doubt where Saul is because of what God had Samuel tell him. God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry 2 Larry, you are assuming that God actually allowed a witch to conjure up a saint from the grave in the first place. It could just as easily be argued that it was not really Samuel at all, but a demonic spirit posing as Samuel. I know of very few Christians that believe this was really Samuel's ghost. A demonic spirit can pose as anyone, and then give some truth plus some lies. If anything, the words spoken were intended to break Saul in spirit, so he would be discouraged and it would influence him for the bad when he went into battle. The promise of him being with Samuel when he died means nothing if the one speaking to him was an imposter. I don't find this argument very convincing, and also do not believe that anyone remains saved if they commit wilful sins after salvation. The Bible clearly states that if we commit wilful sins after salvation, there remains no more sacrifice for that sin. It is not automatically under the blood. How can you say that that Samuel was an imposter? Edited March 1, 2007 by heartofstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry 2 Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 205 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2007 Dear heartofstone, thanks for your comments. I hope this additional material helps. God bless you in Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted February 2, 2007 1 Samuel chapter 28. Saul is at war with the Philistines and God will not answer his prayer. He seeks a witch at En-dor in verse 7 & 11 to bring up the now deceased Samuel from the dead to answer his questions since God will not. In verse 19 Samuel tells Saul that tomorrow he and his sons will be with him. (In Abraham's bosom.) Samuel was deceased and was in Abraham's bosom described in Luke chapter 16 where he states Saul will join him. In Hebrews 11:32 we see Samuel described as one of the righteous of old, and so we must realize that Saul was also there also. Abraham's bosom was the resting place of the righteous dead, or also known as paradise in the center of the earth until Jesus died and took paradise to heaven. Now if we die as believers our spirit goes immediately to heaven to be with the Lord. The spirits of the unrighteous dead went to lower hell, and still do until the day of judgment. ......................... Dear saints of God, believe what you will, but I have no doubt where Saul is because of what God had Samuel tell him. God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry 2 Larry2, If you read my posts you'll see that you and I agree concerning a Christian going to heaven though they commit suicide. And though I'm not fully OSAS, I'm close and can understand why you believe what you believe. I hesitate to address the following because I know I'm being knit-picky; so please bear with me. But I think your use of Saul as a biblical example of someone who died and went to Abraham's bosom (heaven) is stretching the biblical text to prove something that it doesn't. Your interpretation is based on the assumption that when Samuel says that Saul and his sons will be with him, that Samuel means that Saul will be with him in Abraham's bosom (heaven). However it's more likely that he simply meant that he would be with him in the grave, as in dead. In essence he's saying that Saul will die the following day, him and his sons. This was not a positive promise, but a fearful prediction of doom. Not only would Saul die, but his sons would die also, thus cutting off his seed from the earth. That's why Saul responded with such fear. I only point this out because the use of this scripture/story to prove that a believer who commits suicide goes to heaven only muddies the issue, imo. I could be wrong though. May the Lord bless us all as we study His Word! And may the Lord continue to bless you, Larry2, wonderfully! Sincerely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry 2 Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 205 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2007 Quoting you: I think your use of Saul as a biblical example of someone who died and went to Abraham's bosom (heaven) is stretching the biblical text to prove something that it doesn't. Your interpretation is based on the assumption that when Samuel says that Saul and his sons will be with him, that Samuel means that Saul will be with him in Abraham's bosom (heaven). However it's more likely that he simply meant that he would be with him in the grave, as in dead. In essence he's saying that Saul will die the following day, him and his sons. This was not a positive promise, but a fearful prediction of doom. Not only would Saul die, but his sons would die also, thus cutting off his seed from the earth. That's why Saul responded with such fear. I only point this out because the use of this scripture/story to prove that a believer who commits suicide goes to heaven only muddies the issue, imo. I could be wrong though. Hi Brother Nobels, you have the same name as my son-in-law and daughter. Yes I have heard that Samuel was only telling Saul that he was going to be in the grave, but since Samuel was conscious of his place in Abraham's bosom, and since it deals with suicide, I believe we get a glimpse the loss of Saul, the cutting off of answered prayer for unbelief, and being in sin, and his destination. This same thing happened to Moses for unbelief, though without suicide, and we see Moses mentioned along with Samuel as the worthies of faith in Hebrews chapter 11. I do believe that Samuel knowing of the two destinations all men go after their life ends, and since Saul was God's anointed, I believe Samuel was telling Saul exactly where he would be. One more thing, since every part of our spiritual lives are manifest in scripture in type and shadow, or actual testimony by the apostles, this is the only place I see dealing with someone's destination after suicide of God's anointed. Judas committed suicide too, but he was called a son of perdition, or a son of the lake of fire, and we know he is in lower hell awaiting judgment. Anyhow dear brother, thanks for your reply, and I guess we just have to convinced in our own hearts. God bless you in Jesus' name larry2 - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Hi Brother Nobels, you have the same name as my son-in-law and daughter. Yes I have heard that Samuel was only telling Saul that he was going to be in the grave, but since Samuel was conscious of his place in Abraham's bosom, and since it deals with suicide, I believe we get a glimpse the loss of Saul, the cutting off of answered prayer for unbelief, and being in sin, and his destination. This same thing happened to Moses for unbelief, though without suicide, and we see Moses mentioned along with Samuel as the worthies of faith in Hebrews chapter 11. I do believe that Samuel knowing of the two destinations all men go after their life ends, and since Saul was God's anointed, I believe Samuel was telling Saul exactly where he would be. One more thing, since every part of our spiritual lives are manifest in scripture in type and shadow, or actual testimony by the apostles, this is the only place I see dealing with someone's destination after suicide of God's anointed. Judas committed suicide too, but he was called a son of perdition, or a son of the lake of fire, and we know he is in lower hell awaiting judgment. Anyhow dear brother, thanks for your reply, and I guess we just have to convinced in our own hearts. God bless you in Jesus' name larry2 - Larry2, Thanks for the very gracious and thoughtful reply. I'll have to ruminate over it some. And may the Lord bless you too!, Sherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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