Creed

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I don't bat for your team, I bat for my own and if I ever switched teams, I couldn't bat for both.

I thought Humanism was one big happy family? Now there's teams?

Of course Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians are excluded from Humanism. Their on a different Team.

Bias is very, very, very tough to overcome.

Yes, apparently.

Most people don't even try to filter it out, they just get offended you don't think like them and use a copy/paste demonizing adjective to separate you from themselves in a negative light.

But, you have risen above this somehow.

It's much easier for them but in the long run, they don't understand a thing.

And you do?

You and I are more alike than you know my friend.

As I have already said;

Pride goeth before a fall.

So why are you really here Thadius?

Is it to express your pity for all of us poor, uneducated, know nothin, backwater, deceived, Fundamenatlist, Evangelical, Christians?

Have you bothered to examine each and everyone of us or have you simply drawn this conclussion based on the fact that you perceive mens hearts?

Thadius, I am praying for you. You remind me alot of a fellow I used to know not so long ago.

I remember when I was afraid like you

Not so long ago

Confusion ruled my mind, wondering what to do

Not so long ago

These are resting waves from a memory

In a hiding place in my mind

And the sweetest taste is a history

When suffering wears the face of time

The pain hurt way too much the water was so cold

Not so long ago

That's when Light rescued me from darkness I was Free

Not so long ago

In the place of suffering there's a God worth worshipping

On these wings of Worship we will ride.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Creeds are a personal thing unless you sign up for a creed.

So your defining whats personal for the fellow that wrote this Creed?

Have you experienced what he has experienced?

Let's get back to the question of sin for a minute.

You say have none becaue you believe in none.

I desire to know how this system of belief keeps folks from harming other folks.

Ultimately you can do whatsoever you desire and are not accountable for your actions, right?

Do you figure this system of belief is harmful to others or even yourself. Or have you not thought it out that far yet?

Kind of taking a wait and see kinda response.

Friend, God promised that anyone who continues on in their sin will eventually meet up with it's consequences.

What are your plans for taking accountability for your actions before a Holy, Just, and Righteous God?

Peace,

Dave

[nebula]

On "Absolute Truth" I go with physical constants and some concepts such as 0-infiniti and their negatives and a few more things, but as far as there being a "Absolute Truth" as far as Philosophy or Religion goes, as in a system of thinking or belief..... no..... I don't subscribe to that.

So, you are your own self-determiner in what is truth and what is not? in essence, you are your own "god"?

I may have gotten off track there, unsure, but I am for consensus driven reasoning through evidence. I feel like I was programmed this way(by natural selection) and I can't deviate from it if I wanted to.

So, as the OP poem stated:

"The evidence must be investigated

And you can prove anything with evidence."

Correct?

But what if the evidence is incomplete? Numbers can be manipulated . . . it all depends on the presentation and how the munbers were gathered.

What do you do when your evidence fails you?

Now to modernism, talk about the convoluted mess that it is, and I'm just talking about the word modernism. Each individual probably has a different view on the "modernism" which holds to there perception of today and renders the word pretty much useless. However, it has turned I think into something like progressiveness now. I guess the consensus on modern times is that we are progressive now-a-days. Again, later, as a population, we might feel that we are conservative and then modernism would be the same definition as conservative. Again, rendering the word useless. Two words that share the same definition, one of them is useless anyways....

You do realize you are trying to argue with me over a term that has been established by society already. I see you are clever at weaving words to make anything that doesn't agree with you appear as a figment of someone's imagination.

I'm not buying it.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I parsed out what was unimportant.

I'll get back to you on this when I have a firm answer....

It's not a requirement is it?

No, no requirement as long as you behave yourself.

I don't really need an answer, You are very clearly defining yourself.

What was that about having an understanding? There was a bunch of other stuff about Bias and it being overcome. An offense, etc....

As I have already said;

Pride goeth before a fall.

I will still pray for you.

Peace,

Dave

[nebula]

Thadius -

Why are you arguing with me over terms? "Modernism" and "Post-Modernism" are terms some powers-that-be decided to label a certain line of thinking, or "world view" that people ascribe to.

A line of thinking is a line of thinking, no matter what you call it.

And since humans tend to categorize and label different things, sociologist and scholars and whoever else came up with these terms decided to put a label on this line of thiking to separate it from the other "isms" that have been around.

So, trying to convince me of what "modern thinking" should or should not be called - or if it should be called anything at all - won't change the outcome of anything.

[nebula]

I've heard that artist wish to inspire or draw out thoughts and feelings in the viewer from what they create . . . and so they do weird things like create patterns and title their work: "Untitled." But I never got that. I'm more interested in knowing what it meant to the creator, then I can appreciate it for the artistic work that it is. Otherwise, it is a matter of "do I like how it looks?" or "don't I?"

But really, if it makes you feel happy to call whatever expression of thought the poem is targeting "pickled beats," then be my guest to define its characteristics and call it Pickled Beats. It's really no sweat off my brow.

[nebula]

So, you are your own self-determiner in what is truth and what is not? in essence, you are your own "god"?

I don't "believe" in Gods, so just nix that from my vocabulary. I am my own person, confined to what humans CAN do. There is nothing Godlike about me by definition, but I serve no higher power and don't recognize one.

Of course you don't believe in "gods". But if a "god" be defined by whom you reverence as the source of your wisdom and understanding, your fate and destiny, your standard for truth and reality, and your provider - then to whom or what do you defer to but yourself and your mind?

Do you hate evidence?

A science major who hates evidence . . . yeah, that would be a good one!

But to answer you question, I am aware of the limitations, pitfalls, and even deceptions of "evidence."

Which reminds me, I have a great book titled something like "Scientific Blunders" - you should read it sometime!

If the evidence fails me, I say I'm wrong and move on to the best theory to date.

And if people are harmed in the process. . . ?

Do you understand what I mean by "embraced ignorance?"

No

Is that not the apex of humility?

Why is it, in your opinion?

Does it not make me humble?

Are you?

[nebula]

What type of Science Degree are you working towards? Science is fun stuff.

Well, if I could start over from scratch, I would head off in the direction of Earth and Space Science. But for whatever reason, the Lord has established me in the Anatomy & Physiology field. So when I go back to school for my masters degree, it will have something to do with that.

I work for society.

Do you mean your job or your motivation?

If I'm not accountable to a God, let me tell you, I feel truly accountable to society. It's innate, if it isn't, then that someone is a sociopath. We have strict definitions for these things, hehehe, I am not a sociopath. I love people. I couldn't tell you now many I run into and have the pleasure of meeting everyday. I don't need your God.

Do you love those people that do society a disservice, in your opinion? Do you love those people that hurt you?

It is innate in us. If we were not innately good, there wouldn't be any of us here. If as many as every 1 man killed 2 men in his life, there would be no life. We wouldn't be here. How does that not make sense? Somewhere, along the line, symbotic relationships are what killed out isolationist species, thus, a heart for society. You are but a byproduct of those before you. What worked, led to you. We are PROGRESSIVELY getting better, and a whole lot of that is attributed soley to genetics.

Really? Our society is so advanced that we actually work against our biological tendencies. I saw this on a science program a couple of weeks ago! Our biological tendencies are to reproduce, to pass down our genes. Yet more and more people are not marrying, and more and more married couples are choosing not to have children (and I would add more and more people are killing their children - conceived but not allowed to take their first breath). Our society is so advanced we have the capacity to wipe out all life on this planet.

So how is our society "better"? Because we have indoor plumbing and electricity? Try visiting Central America where sewage still flows down canals in the streets and children live in garbage dumps so that they can find food in the refuge. How about traveling to Iran and declare in the middle of the public square, "There is no God!" (How long would you expect to survive?) Or have you studied the conditions of the poor areas in America . . . what exactly is "better" for them? The education they receive? (You should study that aspect of American society sometime if you haven't.) Has gang warfare decreased in the past two decades? Is government less corrupt than it was 200 or 500 centuries ago? Are nations less inclined to war against each other than they did 2 or 3 millenniums ago?

So what evidence has led you to conclude that we are progressively getting "better"?

As far as you being aware of the limitations of evidence, you should be aware of this:

Evidence should only be evidence FOR something, not against it.

By what rule? Do not trial lawyer defendants attempt to bring evidence against their client being guilty?

While Evolutionary Thinkers . . .

Yet for all your evidence, no one by looking at nature has ever found the evidence for why we exist - the cause and essence of existence.

Also, eye-witness testimony ranks lower than physical evidence.

Yet it is still relied on in a court of law.

If people are harmed in the meantime? Such is life! People are harmed everyday, even with you here. It's life! LOL

Really? Is that your expression of love towards people? Let's say you had been the developer of that pregnancy drug ( Bendectin ) to reduce morning sickness that resulted in birth defects? Would that have been your answer - "Such is life?"

What exactly is then is your definition of "love"?

We do the best we can, EMBRACED IGNORANCE!

Now onto the meaning of Embraced Ignorance:

It's just being willing to admit that you are ignorant on 99.9999% of this world.

Yet you rely on your own knowledge, intellect and reason to determine what is truth?

If you do that, you'll be more willing to listen, you'll learn more, you'll accept better ideas, better explainations, and develope higher reasoning. It's a conciousness raising experience.

It is the apex of humility, and I'm working towards it.

No, the apex of humility is when you come face to face with the wickedness of your own heart - deeds done from selfishness, acts of cowardice, betrayal, envy, lying and calling it "bending the truth" to get away with something, slandering a person in a moment of anger, stealing and calling it "borrowing" .... Humility is when you realize you are not as "good" as you believe "good" should be. When your heart breaks for the wrongs you have done and you mourn for those you hurt, then you have the right to call yourself humbled.

[nebula]

I find it interesting how we can talk about the same thing and yet not talk about the same thing.

In your world view, human reason and human technology are our salvation. Although not the center of my world view, I see human reason and human technology leading to our own downfall. Even Einstein had a pessimistic view what he helped create (note what he said about how WW IV would be fought). We've created time-bombs with our advancements - monocropping may have made it easier to grow more food, but it has made it so much easier for it to be wiped out (hint: lack of genetic diversity - you do know the dangers of that, don't you?). And shall we add pollution to the list of consequences of technology? But I digress. Corporate corruption, gang warfare, crime statistics, drug-trafficking, students killing students in school, increased divorced rate, teen alcoholism, falling test scores, and all other things that negatively define our society are not things that can be cured through technology and reason. That only works in Star Trek: TNG.

In reading your comments, I wonder if you know what it means to walk with the wounded and cry with the hurting.

And by the way, you accused me of claims I never made. I said nothing of Creationism, nor the Big Bang. All I said is that looking into nature can't tell us our reason for existence.

There is more to our humanity than our biology. If you think otherwise, then you really ought to spend some time on the streets with the homeless or join a mission of mercy to a developing nation and help build an orphanage or something equivalent.

Edited February 5, 2007 by nebula

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Does this website have Private Messages?

Nonbelievers cannot PM.

Christianity in the States is in it's last days

This might surprise you, I agree somewhat with what you have said.

However;

Mt