ELECTION or FREE WILL

[kjn]

Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Please take note of all the times the verses use the terms - will, would. And in Gal. 5:17 the direct statement that says the we are ABLE to do the things we would/will to do.

LT

Maybe I'm misunderstanding , but doesn't "ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal. 5:17) mean that you are NOT able to do the things that you would/will?

[larryt]

Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Please take note of all the times the verses use the terms - will, would. And in Gal. 5:17 the direct statement that says the we are ABLE to do the things we would/will to do.

LT

Maybe I'm misunderstanding , but doesn't "ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal. 5:17) mean that you are NOT able to do the things that you would/will?

Correct, my typo. will edit.

LT

[larryt]

adams will was never free, and when he sinned, he was acting in accordance with Gods sovereign will. It was Gods will that adam sinned...

Ive heard this nonsense before and it is unbelievable that ANY christian would utter it.

You ARE saying that God HImself either condones sin with this tripe....OR...you are saying that God Himself SINNED in that He caused Adam to 'sin' because it was His own will that Adam disobey.

In my opinion this is a manner for the Calvinist to remove the guilt of sin from their own lives....they just put the blame on God....'it was HIS will for the sin to occur'.....thats a pretty large case of bologna.

Adam DISOBEYED Gods 'permissive' will....that which He "allows" man to do by his choice.

Hi FoC,

Are you saying that man has a 'permissive' will and not a 'free will'?

LT

[larryt]

Those that believe in free will, could you explain the following.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sounds to me like those that were saved, believed. They believed because they were saved.

The wisdom of the world is foolishness with God.

LT

[Floatingaxe]

Those that believe in free will, could you explain the following.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sounds to me like those that were saved, believed. They believed because they were saved.

The wisdom of the world is foolishness with God.

LT

I should hope that all the Gentiles there were chosen for salvation! That is why they were there! We are all chosen, but not all of us choose.

[CSLewis]

Does it matter?

Can both be an answer?

[larryt]

Those that believe in free will, could you explain the following.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sounds to me like those that were saved, believed. They believed because they were saved.

The wisdom of the world is foolishness with God.

LT

I should hope that all the Gentiles there were chosen for salvation! That is why they were there! We are all chosen, but not all of us choose.

FA,

The above verse I cited states that ALL THAT WERE ORDAINED, believed. And to cite some other verses:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father

[Floatingaxe]

We are predestined, but we must choose to receive our inheritance, LT. We all meet that crossroad.

[larryt]

We are predestined, but we must choose to receive our inheritance, LT. We all meet that crossroad.

Did you choose by your own "free will" or was the faith to believe a gift/grace from God? Did you contribute anything to the saving of your soul?

LT

[Thaddaeus]

To all proponents of election/predestination,

I have read many versions of election over the years. Most simply state or exegete a single verse and then find one or two proof-texts to support a whole doctrine.

Relative to the view of election, could someone explain to me just how God is not accorded sin, the sin of man. If one is foreordained from the foundations of the earth that they are specially chosen to eventually live eternally with God can God be excluded from being the creator of sin, actually doing the sin, and/or condoning sin.

My view of God from scripture is that sin and God do not mix. God holds sin against man, yet in this view it is God who is the author and condoner of sin.

Obviously, from the premise of this view, Adam was not created free. God directs man with man being absolutely passive. All of his actions are preordained and set.

What I have never seen is a well thought out theology that aligns the view of election with the more obvious scripture that God and sin do not mix.

Further, in the plan of salvation, why, if man is preordained to be saved, and God directs man, how could man sin in the first place, except that God forced/ did the sin.

What I have read is that many who are elected, may, could live most of their lives as if they were reprobates and seemingly come to the knowledge of Christ late in life. Being elected, then means that God was permitting them to act in sin, to live in sin all the time before it became self-evident.

How can this be explained?

Then, once a person becomes a self-evident believer, the view proclaims that God will not ever let them go. That of itself is a internal contradiction of the view of election, at least by definition. If they were elected from the foundations of the world, when were they not in His hand? Here again, I have not read any argument that frees God of this contradiction.

If one is held by God and cannot flee His pasture, they will also contend that believers do sin, since the Bible is quite clear that believers do sin. Now, how is that possible? God sins? Man, remember, by definition, election, is a passive being. He cannot contribute anything to what he does, it is not his desires, not his choice, but only Gods.

We know that God will hold man accountable for what he does. Yet by this view, man has nothing to be accorded to him for which he could possibly be accountable? Another internal contradiction to the definition of election.

Of those reading this thread, is there any that can even begin to explain these anomalies for the view of election?