OopsMartin Posted April 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 829 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1943 Share Posted April 15, 2007 It appears to me that often those who are big proponents of obeying the external schoolmasterly laws of the old covenant, believe they are then made righious by them. Shalom, You would be dead wrong. That is what is called "false assumption." Your comments are not based on fact. Please show me where anyone here has said anything of the sort. Before Christ, those who obeyed the laws were made rightious by them. Why wouldn't it be the same now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 It appears to me that often those who are big proponents of obeying the external schoolmasterly laws of the old covenant, believe they are then made righious by them. Shalom, You would be dead wrong. That is what is called "false assumption." Your comments are not based on fact. Please show me where anyone here has said anything of the sort. Before Christ, those who obeyed the laws were made rightious by them. Why wouldn't it be the same now? No, that is not true, Oops. Name one person in the Bible that the Bible claims was made righteous by the law. You won't find any. Vickilynn has taken great pains to express that she does not believe that anyone is made righteous by the law, and has not condemned anybody for not living as she lives. To claim that she is trying to be made righteous by observance of the law is to call her a liar. Are you prepared to go down that road? Do you want this discussion to descend into that abyss? Or can you can take her word that she is not promoting works-based righteousness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted April 15, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,800 Content Per Day: 6.17 Reputation: 11,247 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 15, 2007 If a person feels that God wants them to keep kosher, observe the festivals and so forth, then I fully support that, and I myself will defend tooth and nail, their right to observe those things. The same applies to those who do not feel led in that direction. What I stand opposed to is anyone claiming that the festivals and dietary commandments are mandatory for the Christian and that a Christian stands in "disobedience" if they are not doing likewise. I also oppose those who condemn as legalistc, those who choose to keep such commandments. There is room in the Kingdom for both. Here here. Great response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OopsMartin Posted April 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 829 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1943 Share Posted April 15, 2007 It appears to me that often those who are big proponents of obeying the external schoolmasterly laws of the old covenant, believe they are then made righteous by them. Shalom, You would be dead wrong. That is what is called "false assumption." Your comments are not based on fact. Please show me where anyone here has said anything of the sort. Before Christ, those who obeyed the laws were made righteous by them. Why wouldn't it be the same now? No, that is not true, Oops. Name one person in the Bible that the Bible claims was made righteous by the law. You won't find any. Vickilynn has taken great pains to express that she does not believe that anyone is made righteous by the law, and has not condemned anybody for not living as she lives. To claim that she is trying to be made righteous by observance of the law is to call her a liar. Are you prepared to go down that road? Do you want this discussion to descend into that abyss? Or can you can take her word that she is not promoting works-based righteousness? I accused no one. Please explain how you think obeying the OT laws did not make one righteous. What was the purpose of obeying them then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 It appears to me that often those who are big proponents of obeying the external schoolmasterly laws of the old covenant, believe they are then made righteous by them. Shalom, You would be dead wrong. That is what is called "false assumption." Your comments are not based on fact. Please show me where anyone here has said anything of the sort. Before Christ, those who obeyed the laws were made righteous by them. Why wouldn't it be the same now? No, that is not true, Oops. Name one person in the Bible that the Bible claims was made righteous by the law. You won't find any. Vickilynn has taken great pains to express that she does not believe that anyone is made righteous by the law, and has not condemned anybody for not living as she lives. To claim that she is trying to be made righteous by observance of the law is to call her a liar. Are you prepared to go down that road? Do you want this discussion to descend into that abyss? Or can you can take her word that she is not promoting works-based righteousness? I accused no one. Please explain how you think obeying the OT laws did not make one righteous. What was the purpose of obeying them then? Well, I didn't make that up, Oops. Please note the following: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20) To justify, is to make one righteous. They are the same word in the Greek. Furthermore, the law was given to show man God's standard of righteousness, and man's inability to meet that standard. Even if one physically obeyed every law, that obedience is still stained by sin, and so even perfect obedience would not justify anyone. No one was saved by the law in the OT. Even in the OT, salvation was by grace through faith, nothing more. Read your Bible, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giaour Posted April 15, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 179 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,941 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/08/1964 Share Posted April 15, 2007 QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Apr 15 2007, 07:49 AM) * If a person feels that God wants them to keep kosher, observe the festivals and so forth, then I fully support that, and I myself will defend tooth and nail, their right to observe those things. The same applies to those who do not feel led in that direction. What I stand opposed to is anyone claiming that the festivals and dietary commandments are mandatory for the Christian and that a Christian stands in "disobedience" if they are not doing likewise. I also oppose those who condemn as legalistc, those who choose to keep such commandments. There is room in the Kingdom for both. So do you feel the same way about tithing? Or do those who dont tithe, cheat God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Apr 15 2007, 07:49 AM) * If a person feels that God wants them to keep kosher, observe the festivals and so forth, then I fully support that, and I myself will defend tooth and nail, their right to observe those things. The same applies to those who do not feel led in that direction. What I stand opposed to is anyone claiming that the festivals and dietary commandments are mandatory for the Christian and that a Christian stands in "disobedience" if they are not doing likewise. I also oppose those who condemn as legalistc, those who choose to keep such commandments. There is room in the Kingdom for both. So do you feel the same way about tithing? Or do those who dont tithe, cheat God? Thithing is up to you. The New Testament does not command a tithe. The ONLY place in the entire Bible where the tithe was commanded to go, was to the Temple which no longer exists. Christians are held to HIGHER standard of giving. We are to give liberally, cheerfully from the heart and we are to do it unto the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giaour Posted April 15, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 179 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,941 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/08/1964 Share Posted April 15, 2007 QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Apr 15 2007, 07:49 AM) * If a person feels that God wants them to keep kosher, observe the festivals and so forth, then I fully support that, and I myself will defend tooth and nail, their right to observe those things. The same applies to those who do not feel led in that direction. What I stand opposed to is anyone claiming that the festivals and dietary commandments are mandatory for the Christian and that a Christian stands in "disobedience" if they are not doing likewise. I also oppose those who condemn as legalistc, those who choose to keep such commandments. There is room in the Kingdom for both. So do you feel the same way about tithing? Or do those who dont tithe, cheat God? Thithing is up to you. The New Testament does not command a tithe. The ONLY place in the entire Bible where the tithe was commanded to go, was to the Temple which no longer exists. Christians are held to HIGHER standard of giving. We are to give liberally, cheerfully from the heart and we are to do it unto the Lord. 100% agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OopsMartin Posted April 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 829 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1943 Share Posted April 15, 2007 Well, I didn't make that up, Oops. Please note the following: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20) To justify, is to make one righteous. They are the same word in the Greek. Furthermore, the law was given to show man God's standard of righteousness, and man's inability to meet that standard. Even if one physically obeyed every law, that obedience is still stained by sin, and so even perfect obedience would not justify anyone. No one was saved by the law in the OT. Even in the OT, salvation was by grace through faith, nothing more. Read your Bible, please. I happen to agree with you Shiloh. What I am asking is why those who think that everyone should still be obeying all the OT laws of the Old Covenant. What do they think is the purpose of doing so. Read my posts please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 What I am asking is why those who think that everyone should still be obeying all the OT laws of the Old Covenant. What do they think is the purpose of doing so. Read my posts please. I am reading your posts, and unless you worded it incorrectly and meant it be it to otherwise, you said this: Before Christ, those who obeyed the laws were made righteous by them. Why wouldn't it be the same now? You appeared to making a statement of fact. I was simply going off what that appears to be saying. At any rate, NO ONE on this thread, has said that observing the law makes one righteous. Isn't it enough that they fee led to live as they choose? Is it necessary to assign values to them that they have stated do not apply to them? You coming dangerously close to accusing those who choose to stay kosher or keep the Sabbath as doing so to achieve salvation. They have made it clear what their intentions are. Why do you not accept that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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