Just out of curiousity...

[Joshua-777]

....then why not try praying on a daily basis for God to reveal himself to you..

This is another logical fallacy, this one is called Confirmation Bias. Basically, if you are looking for something, you'll fool yourself into finding it.

This is an assumption. You're assuming God can't reveal Himself to you in a way that you know you're not fooling youself. Yes, it's true

that you can fool yourself into believing something. Where God is concerned however, if you can believe that God is omniscient, then He

can do it in a way that you know you're not being 'fooled'.

Amen,

[systemstrike_7]

John 20:29...

Then Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me."

Faith counts! I count it a priviledge to be living after the proof has come, looking behind and not looking forward! The provision for our salvation has already come! It's a done deal! Amen!

See, this is where I lack. I cannot just believe in God, or believe that Jesus is God's son. I just can't believe it, without knowing. I tried to just believe, but I felt like I was lying to myself. In all reality, I was. I would love to believe, but I just plain can't.

[tdrehfal]

John 20:29...

Then Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me."

Faith counts! I count it a priviledge to be living after the proof has come, looking behind and not looking forward! The provision for our salvation has already come! It's a done deal! Amen!

See, this is where I lack. I cannot just believe in God, or believe that Jesus is God's son. I just can't believe it, without knowing. I tried to just believe, but I felt like I was lying to myself. In all reality, I was. I would love to believe, but I just plain can't.

Well, of course you can't. I mean the bereans were considered noble for examining the scriptures to see if the things being said about Jesus were true.

You can't just lie to yourself and I certainly wouldn't expect you to. Just try to examine the evidence objectively. If a book claims that there were 50

other savior-gods before Jesus, make sure you examine the sources, the credentials of the author, etc. Believing is NOT checking your brain at the

door. I totally understand where you're coming from here.

[Floatingaxe]

John 20:29...

Then Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me."

Faith counts! I count it a priviledge to be living after the proof has come, looking behind and not looking forward! The provision for our salvation has already come! It's a done deal! Amen!

You know, this is another one of your beautiful sounding post Floatingaxe, but as beautiful and grandious as you make it sound, there is still no proof. ....and proof is what we are talking about, not assertions.

The fact remains, the provision for salvation has come. His name is Jesus. He lived. He died. He lives again! Ask Him to prove it if you must. He is only too happy to oblige you. Remember though, He values those who believe without having seen. My experience is such that those who are graced with proof usually disregard it eventually. Their hearts were simply disbelieving hearts that would disbelieve no matter what.

[tdrehfal]

This is an assumption. You're assuming God can't reveal Himself to you in a way that you know you're not fooling youself. Yes, it's true

that you can fool yourself into believing something. Where God is concerned however, if you can believe that God is omniscient, then He

can do it in a way that you know you're not being 'fooled'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

No, it's not. It's self-deception, plain and simple.

It's as if I claimed "pickles cure cancer" and go looking for proof and find some statistics and extract only what proves my preconceived notion that "pickles cure cancer" in the first place. I could do that.....or I could do it the scientific way:

Look at the statistics first and then arrive at the fact that "pickles do cure cancer." I should never start out with an unwarranted assumption.

Creation Science has a preconceived notion it tries to arrive at and PARSES information to fit it for example. Science does not practice this at all, it's the means of getting the information they need to parse.

Plain old science PARSES information to see if it fits with current theories. This is why we have the current 'discovery' of dark matter and the like.

Every human being in existance PARSES information through their personal bias to SOME DEGREE. There is no 'perfect, unbiased human' in

existance. EVERYONE, creationist, evolutionist, atheist, whomever, is at least somewhat biased. The problem isn't science, it's people.

[systemstrike_7]

John 20:29...

Then Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me."

Faith counts! I count it a priviledge to be living after the proof has come, looking behind and not looking forward! The provision for our salvation has already come! It's a done deal! Amen!

You know, this is another one of your beautiful sounding post Floatingaxe, but as beautiful and grandious as you make it sound, there is still no proof. ....and proof is what we are talking about, not assertions.

The fact remains, the provision for salvation has come. His name is Jesus. He lived. He died. He lives again! Ask Him to prove it if you must. He is onlytoo happy to oblige you. Remember though, He values those who believe without having seen.

What if you asked him already and got no response whatsoever? What do I think of that? Do I just say, "Hey its okay, you keep 'revealing' yourself to everyone else, I'll just hang out and wait for my turn"?

But wait! This brings up another question! What if I die tomorrow or today or the next day? Where's my chance then?

[tdrehfal]

John 20:29...

Then Jesus told him, "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me."

Faith counts! I count it a priviledge to be living after the proof has come, looking behind and not looking forward! The provision for our salvation has already come! It's a done deal! Amen!

You know, this is another one of your beautiful sounding post Floatingaxe, but as beautiful and grandious as you make it sound, there is still no proof. ....and proof is what we are talking about, not assertions.

The fact remains, the provision for salvation has come. His name is Jesus. He lived. He died. He lives again! Ask Him to prove it if you must. He is onlytoo happy to oblige you. Remember though, He values those who believe without having seen.

What if you asked him already and got no response whatsoever? What do I think of that? Do I just say, "Hey its okay, you keep 'revealing' yourself to everyone else, I'll just hang out and wait for my turn"?

But wait! This brings up another question! What if I die tomorrow or today or the next day? Where's my chance then?

Why not just keep asking? It can't hurt you, can it?

[Floatingaxe]

Why not just keep asking? It can't hurt you, can it?

YES, it can very much so. Confirmation Bias. If I'm expecting God to talk to me or show me a sign, it could be that a very natural event with very narrow chances of happening could come about in front of me and instead of explaining it away in the natural terms it ask for, I just simply say God Did It because "I'm looking" and I've hurt myself. I've kept myself from finding out the natural truth of the matter.

Please, study confirmation bias, for everyone's sake. It should be mandatory in schools.

So, do you want Jesus to show you Himself, or not? Sounds like a big "not" to me! He doesn't play silly games with people. Either you are seriously seeking or you're not.

[tdrehfal]

Plain old science PARSES information to see if it fits with current theories. This is why we have the current 'discovery' of dark matter and the like.

Every human being in existance PARSES information through their personal bias to SOME DEGREE. There is no 'perfect, unbiased human' in

existance. EVERYONE, creationist, evolutionist, atheist, whomever, is at least somewhat biased. The problem isn't science, it's people.

We don't parse, we gather and find that the evidence SUPPORTS our claims. The fact still remains that at least we have evidence. You just look around and attribute it to your preconceived notion of God did it.

I agree that we all have bias, it is very hard to overcome, but science uses peer-review to negate the innate bias within us. Nothing is accepted in science by one person, it is accepted on a community basis. Now, while you might say Christians have a community and accept this "information" as true you also have to consider that you are in an establishment that produces YES MEN and there are only 4-5 degrees of separation between you and James Dobson. With so few degrees, his influence reigns supreme. If you think he doesn't know this, I think you are sadly mistaken. Note that I include "I think" with my assertion of Dobson.

Scientists don't place authority over themselves, they love the idea of being found right by multiple, respected on an even level, persons. James Dobson makes knees buckle for some reason.

You know, this just isn't true. The scientific community laughs at everything outside of the current scientific paradigm.

The scientific community even laughed at the Wright Brothers for thinking that flight was possible... The scientific community

[of people] is the problem. Not science. Like I said before... IT'S PEOPLE.

http://www.jvsr.com/researchupdate/detail.asp?ID=986

[Floatingaxe]

So, do you want Jesus to show you Himself, or not? Sounds like a big "not" to me! He doesn;t play silly games with people. Either you are seriously seeking or you're not.

It is a big fat no on the idea of subjecting myself to confirmation bias. We are talking about negating it, not instilling it. You are asking me to instill it as if it's something to be proud of or that I'm scared to do it, I deem it idiotic though.

Sounds like your God plays a lot of silly games, like REQUIRING faith. You know, I only wish there were a God that came down all the time to dispense immediate judgement on those that did others wrong, that would be a great thing for everyone. Unfortunately, it isn't the case. Playing games like "he built history into the world." Playing games like "fore-go evidence if it contradicts the Bible." Playing games like "I changed my mind with the new testament." Playing games like claiming prophecy is even worthy of respect. There are a lot of games, but science has a way of negating the games THAT WE PLAY ON OURSELVES.

You can be sure He doesn't change His mind about you! He still loves you even though you ridicule Him. He takes a lot more than we could, and He still loves. I call that an incredible God.