Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

[Guest LadyC]

Gal 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The post that I have read for it do not show love or joy or any of the above...the only things I have seen from the people who suport it is the attitude of a witch hunt....where does the bible say we have to condem someone if they chose to do something we dont agree with? where does it say these non christian should act like us to make us happy?

then you clearly haven't read all the posts in this thread. i know that i, and many others, have defended the bill and pointed out how this whole "witch-hunt" accusation is bogus. there is no witch-hunt.

[forrestkc]

Now come on, stop and think about this, you are not honestly comparing abortion to the slaughter of over 6 million Jews.

Both involve the slaughter of innocent human life. Both are equally immoral.

Exodus 21:22

"When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.

I was waiting for you to do this just so I could show how little you know of scripture.

The next passage says:

But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

The reason it says this is that verse 22 is to be translated that, if the man hits the women and it causes a premature birth (not a miscarriage, that is a mistranslation from the Hebrew word yatsa'...it means if she gives birth prematurely) then the man is still to be punished for what he did. This assumes no harm was done to the mother OR the baby upon doing this. This is why verse 23 is there, to state that if any harm, not just death, but ANY HARM is caused to the mother or child, thus a miscarriage, brain damage, etc...the man who struck her is to be put to death.

Oops, looks like you didn't read the context!

I edited and quoted the context.

"When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.

23

4 But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life,

The context is clear, miscarriage caries a fine, if the woman suffers harm as result, then a life for a life.

Now, lets just say you are right about it being a premature birth, as the Hebrew term yatsa means "lose her offspring". Even then the ancient Hebrews believed a person was a breathing human being, thus the fetus was not a person, until the fetus was born and took its first breath.

Look at other verses from the Old Testament:

Leviticus 27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver and for the female ten shekels.

This would indicate that a baby had no real value until it was at least a month old.

Some theologians also point out:

Numbers 5:12-31 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water..... This passage describes the action that a husband could take if he suspected that his wife had engaged in an adulterous relationship. He would take her and an offering of barely meal to the tabernacle, where the priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

The Old Testament is rife with examples of the ancient Hebrews total disregard for innocent women and children in times of war, yet one should believe that they thought an embryo or fetus was a human being deserving of the same rights and protections that a child would?

I mean look, personally, I think that abortion in most instances is wrong, but I also think the bible is rather ambiguous on the issue. In fact, I think the evidence is clear that our sense of morality and respect for life is much, much greater than that of the ancient Hebrews.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

again. nothing in the portion of the senators words that you quoted indicates he wants to identify the women who had abortions.

Then I pose this to you again:

"If the number of abortions reported is already publicly avaliable, why did Campfield say what was quoted above? I don't see how adding a Death Certificate would make it any easier or harder to determine how many lives are being ended by abortions. If that isn't the reason Campfield is proposing this, then what is?"

If the number is already avaliable, WHAT IS THE POINT of introducing the bill? There must be some reason, but it sure isn't to find out how many abortions are being performed. I'll quote two things from the exact same article. There are taken in context, and in order:

""All these people who say they are pro-life _ at least we would see how many lives are being ended out there by abortions," said Campfield."

"The number of abortions reported to the state Office of Vital Records is already publicly available. The office collects records _ but not death certificates _ on abortions and the deaths of fetuses after 22 weeks gestation or weighing about 1 pound."

I don't know how I can explain it any clearer than this. If the number of lives being ended out there by abortions is already avaliable, why is the bill being proposed? Someone is not telling the truth about the intent.

i never said your views on privacy are anti christian. AK and i both have stated that your views on when life begins are clearly unbiblical, therefore anti-christian.

so are your opinions on the authority of scripture though, so that pretty much invalidates anything else.

You must be confusing me with someone else. I have never stated my beliefs concerning abortion in this thread, or my views on when life begins. You are putting beliefs in my mouth and condemning me for them.

[Guest LadyC]

Roughly 25% of all pregnancies at six weeks LMP end in miscarriage. Of those, many occur before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Of those, many do not normally seek medical attention.

Now if a fertilized egg is a human being, then that 25 percent of all pregnancies that end in miscarriage should be investigated as a death, and a death certificate should be issued. Let

[Guest LadyC]

yeah we know what you believe, remember this?

Yes I do, I just restated it for you. Emphasis on me saying the exact word of God, exact is the important part.

Once again, my religious beliefs are suddenly on trial when I disagree.

here are your exact words:

I view the bible as a reference guide; you view the bible as an exact truth.

I view the bible as something manmade, and therefore prone to error at times; you view the bible as the written word of God.

I view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice; you view homosexuality as a damnable sin.

Coming from my standpoint, I feel homosexuality should be taught as something that is "ok" in today's society. Because the bible is a reference guide, and because it was written by men but not necessarily the exact written truth of God, there are current humanitarian situations that should not fall directly in line with the Bible's teachings.

[Emily~Anne]

Roughly 25% of all pregnancies at six weeks LMP end in miscarriage. Of those, many occur before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Of those, many do not normally seek medical attention.

Now if a fertilized egg is a human being, then that 25 percent of all pregnancies that end in miscarriage should be investigated as a death, and a death certificate should be issued. Let

[Guest LadyC]

Now come on, stop and think about this, you are not honestly comparing abortion to the slaughter of over 6 million Jews.

Both involve the slaughter of innocent human life. Both are equally immoral.

Exodus 21:22

"When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.

I was waiting for you to do this just so I could show how little you know of scripture.

The next passage says:

But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

The reason it says this is that verse 22 is to be translated that, if the man hits the women and it causes a premature birth (not a miscarriage, that is a mistranslation from the Hebrew word yatsa'...it means if she gives birth prematurely) then the man is still to be punished for what he did. This assumes no harm was done to the mother OR the baby upon doing this. This is why verse 23 is there, to state that if any harm, not just death, but ANY HARM is caused to the mother or child, thus a miscarriage, brain damage, etc...the man who struck her is to be put to death.

Oops, looks like you didn't read the context!

context? looks like the only source of scripture he consulted was the message. the NIV, KJV, NKJV, AMS all state premature birth, not miscarriage.

[nebula]

Thus, it is a private issue between the woman involved, her spouse or family, and her physician.

Physician? Most abortions in this country take place in abortion clinics, and the person performing "the procedure" does not have to be liscenced M.D.

Unless you are able to find facts stating otherwise - for those are the facts I've found.

Spouse and family? They aren't required to know - even minors don't have to let their parents know.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

yeah we know what you believe, remember this?

Yes I do, I just restated it for you. Emphasis on me saying the exact word of God, exact is the important part.

Once again, my religious beliefs are suddenly on trial when I disagree.

here are your exact words:

I view the bible as a reference guide; you view the bible as an exact truth.

I view the bible as something manmade, and therefore prone to error at times; you view the bible as the written word of God.

I view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice; you view homosexuality as a damnable sin.

Coming from my standpoint, I feel homosexuality should be taught as something that is "ok" in today's society. Because the bible is a reference guide, and because it was written by men but not necessarily the exact written truth of God, there are current humanitarian situations that should not fall directly in line with the Bible's teachings.

Yes, I said that. what does abortion have to do with it? Again, I draw your attention to the word 'exact'. I put it there for a reason. I said I don't feel it is the "exact" written truth of God for reasons I have had to defend time and time again. I did not say I didn't think the Bible had any written truth of God in it, because I do feel there is written truth from God in the Bible. I was saying I don't think that word for word, everything is as God had said thousands of years prior to today. People had to transcribe the Bible, and had to translate it, and had to pass it on through physical writing long before the printing press was invented. That is what I mean by "manmade". When people go through this process of repeating a story and rewriting a story of any kind, there will be minor discrepancies, the manmade copying of the Bible is no exception. Now, one incredible fact of the Bible is that it has remained VERY similar to it's original translations, but again there IS ROOM FOR ERROR, and through translation between languages that might not have exact synonymous words, and through minor text changes, meaning can change quite dramatically in the course of close to 2000 years.

This seems exteremly off topic.

[nebula]

So, there is nothing preventing radical right to life groups, or anyone else for that matter, from obtaining those records, and creating lists to essentially mark women who underwent the procedure for any reason.

That is simply wrong.

And if any of them started doing that, I'd be among the first to oppose them.

Those children deserve to have thier lives honored, and I know many women who have had abortions and since repented have found healing in memorializing their baby.