Christians rejecting the Faith?

December 31, 2003

Thanks, Shiloh, that's very good. Here's my reply, and I did use help from an article, because I am no theologian, for sure:

Romans 6:23-For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The key word one needs to recognize in this verse is the word gift. This gift that God has provided is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Salvation only comes through Christ's work on the cross, not through any work or merit of man, which is precisely what makes this a free gift of God. R. T. Kendall says, "Salvation is a free gift. If I must know whether or not I am saved by the state of my own faithfulness, it is no gift at all."32 Those who believe they can lose their salvation once they have been saved are placing their trust in their works plus their faith. But the gift, the free gift given by God, leaves no room for works but only for belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That free gift can be obtained only through Jesus Christ. No individual can gain, or keep, eternal life through any other way.

December 31, 2003

Now, who am I supposed to believe? John Ankerberg or the Spirit of God?

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I'll cast my lots with the Spirit of God.

Nothing in that passage indicates that such people were no longer saved. It is not a sin to be decieved. God does not abandon his own when they are led down a wrong path. God does not throw you away when you screw up and take the wrong path. I have believed wrong things in the past, and have had to come back around to correct thinking, but I was not going to go to Hell for it. I have dabbled in the New Age even after becoming a Christian because I thought it was harmless fun to play around with projecting my aura, mental telepathy and such things. I thougt for a long time that ouija boards was nothing more than a parlor game. I played with them for a while even after being saved. I am not lilly white by any stretch of the imagination. I have been led astray into false doctrines in my younger years. As I got older the Lord convicted me of them, and I gave them up. There was nothing to indicate that I was on a path to Hell. I was decieved. Granted I was not a great Christian, and would definitely fall into Pauls description in verse one.

SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd · December 31, 2003

Those who believe they can lose their salvation once they have been saved are placing their trust in their works plus their faith. But the gift, the free gift given by God, leaves no room for works but only for belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That free gift can be obtained only through Jesus Christ. No individual can gain, or keep, eternal life through any other way.

Earning by Works versus Conditions

Taken from the article "The Antinomians are Coming!"

"Taking" or focusing in on the truth, that we do not "merit" or earn God's salvation and its attending blessings, has led many into Antinomianism. Yes, it IS true that we do NOT earn our salvation, nor our relationship with God. But that does not negate the fact that God DOES HAVE HIS "Conditions" respecting salvation.

Suppose, for instance, I were to read in my newspaper about a free milk giveaway happening at the local dairy. Let's say the newspaper states that between the hours of 10 A.M. and 3 P.M. on Thursday, March 16th., the dairy is pleased to give to every person over the age of 18 a fresh gallon of milk, for free. From such an ad, I'd understand that the milk would to be free, right? I wouldn't have to pay for it or earn it. Also, anyone over 18 years old could receive a gallon if they wanted. Therefore, it would be fairly clear that there would be NO WAY anyone could earn, merit, pay for or deserve a free gallon of milk. It is a free gift.

However, at the same time, there are definite "conditions" to receiving the milk such as:

- Firstly, one had to be over 18 years of age.

- Secondly, they had to be present at the dairy.

- Thirdly, only between the hours of 10 A.M. and 3 P.M. on Thursday, March 16th. could it be received.

Meeting Conditions does NOT mean earning by works

By being at the dairy at the required time would not mean that anyone had earned, worked for or deserved the milk. No one would even be considered if they weren't present there between the appointed times. Merit, works and deserving it have nothing to do with it. It is based totally on grace -i.e. the kindness of the dairy to give it away. The dairy is giving it away simply because they want to.

On the other hand, there are definite conditions to being able to receive a gallon of milk. How happy a person is about being able to get the milk makes no difference concerning whether they receive it or not. Even "faith alone" is not the deciding factor in them receiving the milk directly. If they don't make it to the dairy in person as specified, they will simply lose out. The fact that these conditions have to be followed has nothing to do with anyone earning the milk or whether or not it is a gift. Having conditions has nothing whatsoever to do with the love, kindness and tender hearts of the dairy owners.

In the same way, parents sometimes have conditions for their children. Because of LOVE, parents may wish to give or do something for their children. However, just because they make it conditional, like first having to have either their room clean, face washed, hair combed or such like, doesn't make the gift any less a gift. Knowing how children can think, only the mind of an immature child could think they were earning it. What does this tell us about the level of thought Antinomians use?

An example of salvation's "conditions" was taught by Jesus in His parable concerning the wise and foolish virgins (Matt 25:1-13). The primary difference between the wise and foolish was whether or not they had met God's conditions.

"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins, the friends of the bride, who took their lights, and went out with the purpose of meeting the husband. And five of them were foolish, and five were wise. For the foolish, when they took their lights, took no oil with them. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lights. Now the husband was a long time in coming, and they all went to sleep. But in the middle of the night there is a cry, The husband comes! Go out to him. Then all those virgins got up, and made ready their lights. And the foolish said to the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lights are going out. But the wise made answer, saying, There may not be enough for us and you; it would be better for you to go to the traders and get oil for yourselves. And while they went to get oil, the master came; and those who were ready went in with him to the feast: and the door was shut. But he made answer and said, Truly I say to you, I have no knowledge of you. Keep watch, then, because you are not certain of the day or of the hour."

Matthew 25:1-13

(Side note: some Antinomian teachers, in trying to explain this away, say that the foolish virgins only missed the rapture, etc., but will still have a second chance after the tribulation. We ask: when does the Bible say they get their "second chance"? Instead, Jesus said to them "I tell you the truth, I don't know you". In every place where Jesus says He doesn't know them, the consequences are always disastrous eternally. So how do these "smooth talkers" get such a conclusion? Certainly not from the Bible. I'd hate to teach or base my eternal future on such unscriptural doctrines of men.)

SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd · December 31, 2003

Now, who am I supposed to believe? John Ankerberg or the Spirit of God?

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I'll cast my lots with the Spirit of God.

Nothing in that passage indicates that such people were no longer saved.

Fortunately for the truth, the Scriptures state otherwise. The Spirit says these WILL DEPART from the faith. To be "in the faith" is to be saved (Acts 6:7; 14:22; Romans 1:5; Colossians 1:21-23) so it stands to reason that if one departs from the faith, they are no longer saved.

It is not a sin to be decieved.

December 31, 2003

Let's discuss this one:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Or this one:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

or this:

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

December 31, 2003

Yes, Idolsmasher, and these are good ones also:

2 Corinthians 1

21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1

12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

NIV

Ephesians 4

30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Adstar · December 31, 2003

Good scriptures smasher

shiloh357

Wages are are earned. One earns the right to go to Hell, because of sin. Hell is what we deserve. God in His grace freely gives us salvation. It is a free gift. The gift is not taken from us when we sin, or when we lack faith. Otherwise, it is no longer a gift.

"or when we lack faith."???

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

shiloh we must have faith. Without it we do not recieve grace

All praise The Ancient of Days

December 31, 2003

Yes, we must have faith, and God gives it to us:

Hebrews 12

2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

December 31, 2003

shiloh357
QUOTE
Wages are are earned. One earns the right to go to Hell, because of sin. Hell is what we deserve. God in His grace freely gives us salvation. It is a free gift. The gift is not taken from us when we sin, or when we lack faith. Otherwise, it is no longer a gift.

"or when we lack faith."???

My point Adstar, is that there are times in the lives of many Christians when situations we face cause some to question their faith in God. There is also the added threat of those who are immature in the faith being led astray through seeming "innocent associations" with Mormon friends, Jehovah's Witness friends, other such things. There are a variety of issues that cause people to falter in their faith. I have a lot of faith in the grace and mercy of God. I know that God sees our frame and he knows that we are dust. He does not throw us away because we stray from the path. Christians lose faith in God from time to time, they end up being decieved. None of that takes him surprise. God saves us inspite of knowing what will happen in the future. He could just save people he knows are going to be lilly white and never screw up, but he doesn't do that. We are kept by his grace, inspite of our sin, not because we so perfect and wonderful, and deserving of it.

The Scripture states that God is faithful even when we are faithless. It is not our faith in and of itself that saves us, but rather the Grace of God. Faith is the intstrument by which we recieve grace.

December 31, 2003

"Taking" or focusing in on the truth, that we do not "merit" or earn God's salvation and its attending blessings, has led many into Antinomianism. Yes, it IS true that we do NOT earn our salvation, nor our relationship with God. But that does not negate the fact that God DOES HAVE HIS "Conditions" respecting salvation.

We disagree over what constitutes "conditions" for being saved. To say that God has condtions for being saved that (usually) end up constituting works, and saying that such is not an attempt at earning of salvation, is nonsensical.

Having to meet external conditions, and working for salvation are one and the same. You are saying the same thing two different ways. It is like trying to draw a distinction between cutting down a tree and chopping down a tree. It is all the same.